Procedure and House Affairs Committee on April 27th, 2006

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

We've run out of time on this round.

It might be a good idea if the questions were shorter than the answers; then we can get more answers.

Yvon, would you prefer to go?

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Kingsley and Ms. Davidson, I would like to welcome you here today.

I have a few questions for you. We had elections in 2006, but we feel as if we are still in 2004, without knowing in what direction we should be going.

My first question is on the resources at Elections Canada.

For example, Elections Canada is just now following up on the nomination race that was held in 2004. That seems as though you didn't have enough funds for staff to do it. We're in 2006.

[Jean-Pierre Kingsley]

With regard to resources, I would like to reassure committee members. Elections Canada has what we call statutory authority—in other words, if I need additional resources, I obtain them automatically. It is not to me to determine the resources I need to fulfil the duties of my position. So there is no problem there. In my 16 years as Chief Electoral Officer, the committee has never heard me talk about a lack of resources because there is no such lack. It is entirely up to the Chief Electoral Officer to determine the resources required to do what needs to be done. So there is no problem there.

If there have been delays anywhere, I am quite prepared to examine the issue with you to see what is going on. However, I can assure you that the cause will not be a lack of resources.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

I don't know whether you have received any complaints about members' householders. When an election is called, we cannot send out householders unless they are already on their way and we can no longer stop them. There have been some 30 complaints about this. I think that is a very high number, since householders were not generally a complaint issue. In fact, we received the complaints 21 days after the election was called. Obviously, it does not take 21 days for a letter mailed in Ottawa to reach a voter's home.

Is Elections Canada monitoring the situation closely? Are the costs taken into account in candidates' expenditures?

[Jean-Pierre Kingsley]

Elections Canada makes no special effort to track this. If there is abuse, I rely on you the members and the candidates, to report that abuse and to complain to the commissioner. That is how the system has always worked. I have therefore not allocated resources across Canada to check on householder use.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

So we could simply forward those 30 complaints to you?

[Jean-Pierre Kingsley]

Absolutely. If you forward them to me, I will refer them to the commissioner, since they involve an alleged breach of the legislation. We should bear in mind that it is not an actual breach of the legislation, but rather the possibility that Parliament has subsidized an election campaign, something that is inherently problematic. So if you forward the complaints to me, I will have them examined to determine whether the member or candidate in question properly reported his or her expenses.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

My other question is about people in hospitals and residences. If someone ends up in a hospital from advance voting day until election day, he or she has a problem. Basically, that person—who would not have known he would be hospitalized—will be unable to vote.

Do you have any suggestions to make on this issue?

[Jean-Pierre Kingsley]

Mr. Godin, you have identified a problem that has existed since the act was amended in 1993. The act stipulates that the lists must be revised—and I have no choice in this regard—six days prior to the election. From that point to election day, we cannot do anything. So from that day on, there can be no requests for special ballots. We cannot do anything for people who have heart attacks between that day and election day. And you are the ones who adopted the act that prevents me from acting otherwise.

You had reasons for doing that, reasons that were justified administratively speaking, because you want voters lists that are up-to-date on election day. You gave me, me and the electoral system, six days to finalize the lists, with annotations for everyone who has requested a special ballot, because you do not want these people to vote twice. That is why you, as parliamentarians, included those provisions in the act.

It will be impossible to eliminate this six-day period, and it will be difficult to shorten it, but there may be a way to do that. But if you change the period from six days to four, in the meantime, there will be victims of heart attacks who will not be able to vote, and you will receive complaints about that. That is a reality that we will not be able to change.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

I understand that there may have been reasons at the time, but perhaps we did not think about people who are in the hospital, or people for whom it is impossible to leave their homes, or people who must go and work abroad, and so on. It would be helpful to look at the reasons that were used in the past and to see if there could be a special ballot in hospitals on election day to enable people who are there to vote.

We are working very hard to ensure that all Canadians exercise their right to vote. We even make sure that they are able to exercise their right to vote when they are abroad, by giving them an opportunity to do so at an embassy. However, people who are hospitalized five minutes from their polling station cannot vote. I agree with you that for them, this is terrible.

[Jean-Pierre Kingsley]

I share your feelings, Mr. Godin. That is why I said that you had identified a problem. I explained the reason why the problem is as it is. However, I recommended somewhere that we sit down together and examine the matter, to see how we could deal with these specific cases.

We must also take into account the fact that the people who are in the hospital do not all come from the same riding. That is why we cannot set up a polling station there on election day. People in the hospital come from a variety of ridings. I was president of the Ottawa General Hospital, and there could be people from 20 different ridings at any given time. That is the other reason why you did not want polling stations in hospitals on election day. We did not want people from outside the riding who are at the hospital to vote in that riding. However, I would like us to sit down and examine the matter again.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

I don't want to take any time, but of course the problem of multiple ridings voting in a hospital is the same thing embassies have to deal with around the world. There is possibly a solution in there somewhere.

We'll move to the next speaker, Mr. Hawn.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for coming, Mr. Kingsley and Ms. Davidson. It's good to meet you.

I want to make some observations on an election experience that we had in Edmonton Centre in 2006. Some of it took place in 2004 as well. Then I have some questions.

During the last campaign, we got an e-mail from a prominent Edmonton lawyer about the fact that many individuals were enumerated at their downtown offices instead of at their homes. One individual bragged about how many times he had gotten to vote for my opponent based on the number of leases he had in the riding and therefore the number of voter cards he received. That number was fourteen.

We thought it was rumour mongering, but we thought we'd check. We looked up some of the addresses in Edmonton's premier high-rise tower and discovered that there were 29 individuals registered to vote out of various offices--or the lobby--of that building.

This led to a more thorough search. We used a very large Edmonton map and checked against the revised voters list of 91,300 names. We had a team of people stay up all night to do this. We uncovered 300 apparently spurious registrations and several hundred suspicious ones that merited closer scrutiny. We found 100 non-existent addresses in Edmonton's downtown core. In some cases the addresses listed were fictional residences between two genuine buildings. We found hundreds of families registered to vote out of their law offices, medical offices, accounting offices, Government of Canada offices.

In some cases there may have been genuine errors involved, but in other cases married couples, including their children, were registered to vote out of high-rise office spaces. Dozens of people were registered to vote out of office towers, but suite numbers were not listed, making the addresses look like normal residential addresses. Some people were registered to vote in other ridings as well as ours. In some cases people were registered to vote only in Edmonton Centre when it was clear they lived in another riding. One of those included a candidate.

Dozens of people were registered to vote out of storage yards, and yet there's no legitimate way anybody can be registered to vote out of a storage yard. Eighteen people were registered to vote out of one truck stop. People were registered to vote out of karaoke bars, lingerie stores, dance lounges, galleries; you get the picture.

We had other observations with respect to the voter cards. Some nationalities routinely get multiple voter cards. Some get three voter cards, some get two voter cards. Most don't use them, probably, but they certainly could.

Voter cards don't necessarily get put into mailboxes. A lot of people in apartment buildings are fairly transient, and voter cards get left in stacks in lobbies of apartment buildings. The cards can then be picked up and used by anyone. Since we don't require identification at the polling station, anybody can be anybody. This election and last, in fact, we got phone calls--anonymous, naturally--offering us extra voter cards, for money, naturally. We, naturally, refused.

We found vouching practices that were not in accordance with the Elections Act. A bus with 40 people rolled up to a poll with one person purporting to vouch for those 40 people. We had very well-trained scrutineers who said, no, you can't; one person may vouch for one person, period. We put the other 39 people back on the bus. There was a fair amount of resistance, naturally, from the people we were turning away, but we knew we were right.

The issue of non-citizens voting was brought up before. We certainly share that concern. People expect to be ID'd. When I vote provincially, municipally, or federally I expect somebody to ask for my identification. When I go in to vote that day, I carry some identification with me, whether it be a passport, a driver's licence, a birth certificate, or whatever.

We talked about the possibility of prosecuting people who fraudulently sign those and so on. I'd be interested to know how many of those have actually been prosecuted.

Special ballots was another concern. We identified a number of people who had voted by special ballot from non-eligible addresses. Despite the objections raised with Elections Canada, these ballots were verified and counted.

The same concerns apply to multiple voting by people through multiple business addresses, as I've already mentioned. We know what happened because we saw it happen. We raised objections, and we brought all of this to the attention of Elections Canada. They were very sympathetic to the situation, because clearly there was a problem with the voters list.

I'm sure it's not just in Edmonton Centre. I'm sure it's the same in other ridings as well. The commissioner of elections assured us that they would continue to investigate this after the election. I'm curious as to what the outcome will be.

What I'd like to do is ask a number of specific questions if I could. What specific measures are being taken to improve the quality of the permanent list of electors? Some concerns have been raised as to why it might get out of whack. What specific measures have been taken to prevent the mailing of multiple voter cards to the same individual? Is Elections Canada taking any steps to ensure that mail carriers actually put every voter card in a mail slot? What specific measures are being taken to distinguish between residential addresses and mailing addresses on Canada Revenue Agency tax forms? What is Elections Canada's policy as to when special ballots can be disallowed?

That's probably enough questions for one go-round.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

That's quite a number of questions.

Mr. Kingsley, you can start from the top, and I'll certainly allow you a little bit more time. We have about three minutes left on the clock for this round.

[Jean-Pierre Kingsley]

To begin with, I will state that I was aware, and I remember the problems with Edmonton Centre. I will also reassure people that the problems were in Edmonton Centre, and they did not manifest themselves to any extent, as was presented.

We were able to purify the lists through special measures that we took. We did this with the returning officer, and I understood that this was done to the satisfaction of the various candidates. But that may not be the case, in which case I would like to pursue it further. Please remember that if there are instances of multiple voting of which members are aware, a formal complaint must be filed with the commissioner of Elections Canada so that he may pursue the matter. We do not investigate on the basis of hearsay, honestly. We cannot do that. The law requires that there be a written complaint, and the same goes for any other infractions of the statute. If people request or attempt to do things that are against the statute, we need the information, and the commissioner will then have the grounds on which to consider launching an investigation and, possibly, a prosecution.

Regarding the matter of people being on the list at addresses that don't exist, or multiple families being listed at one address, what we found out--and this was more particularly a problem in Edmonton Centre--is that for purposes of the income tax system, some people register their addresses as their accountant's, so we were getting the accountant's address as a genuine address. We were able to purge the lists of these before the election. We've also instituted special measures in our computer programs, to detect this problem from now on, but this has been a problem that surfaced particularly during this campaign.

In terms of Canada Post, we pay first-class postage rates for the voter information cards. There is no voter card in this country. It's a voter information card. It's information that is provided. That card does not entitle one to vote. It certainly does not entitle one to vote multiple times. We do check the lists for duplicates, but I will also say--I will take only one more minute and I will have to come back for a number of the other answers--that we launched a special effort just before the last election, to review the whole functioning of the list. I think we've passed a milestone. Generally speaking, the list performed better at this election than it has for any other election. We've launched a special effort that will involve MPs because we need to see how we can improve it even further. I will remind members that we send the lists out every year to members of Parliament. I know Mr. Godin religiously checks the addresses. He checks the lists to see what is right, and whether there are errors on the lists. Because he brings these to our attention on a yearly basis, we are able to improve the lists for that particular riding. But only a small number of members of Parliament....

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Thank you very much.

We're going to move to the second round. In this particular case I don't think we need to be quite as formal. I have been watching for hands to come up.

Monsieur Proulx, if you want to go ahead, we will have five minutes for the second round.

I will be watching for hands, and if folks want to raise theirs, I will get them onto the list. Let's follow that sort of less formal order.

Mr. Proulx, go ahead, please.

[Marcel Proulx, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Mr. Kingsley and Mr. Davidson, thank you for accepting our invitation to appear before the committee. I have a few comments and questions.

First, the Liberal Party of Canada is also in the process of preparing its list of errors and horror stories. We will table it once it is finished because it is a fairly exhaustive list. We will also provide examples, such as the case involving a returning officer's employees asking workers what their political allegiance was so that work schedules provided more work to some workers as opposed to others. That was a fairly difficult situation.

After Mr. Davidson spoke, Mr. Owen asked a question. Do you have statistics on the number of people who are or have been charged with making a false declaration at the time of voter registration? It would be great if you could give us these figures today or through the clerk of the committee.

I would like to make a comment on the permanent voters' list. During the January election, we were particularly upset to find out that names had allegedly been added to the list from income tax or health insurance lists. In those cases, the other names had not been removed from the voters' list. So there were cases where six people were identified as living in the same bachelor apartment. Of course, that's impossible. So when you find one and call the owner of the building or the tenants of the apartment, you find out that the person left four years ago, and that another person left six years ago. Perhaps there is a mechanism which isn't working or which doesn't even exist. Whatever the case may be, we should try to make sure this doesn't happen again.

I don't think that you will be able to answer my question today on voters who register on the day of the vote. A little earlier, we were talking about identification. There were rumours, which we are in the process of confirming for our catalogue, that in certain ridings, people could register as voters by simply presenting a magazine on which there was a sticker with their name and address. The people claimed that the magazine was addressed to them by Canada Post and that this gave them the right to register as voters. As it turns out, after election day or after polling stations closed, it was discovered that the same magazine was being passed around and that an organizer at the door was systematically providing people with the stickers. There's something wrong with that process, and I think that we, in our capacity as members of Parliament, and you, in your capacity as the enforcer of the law, must look into the possibility of making changes.

I was afraid that it was your catalogue, Mr. Guimond.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[Jean-Pierre Kingsley]

It is thicker than that.

[Marcel Proulx, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

I know he'll give it to me as soon as he gets the chance.

[Michel Guimond, Bloc, Montmorency—Charlevoix—Haute-Côte-Nord, QC]

Yes, I'm waiting for the right opportunity to talk about it before catching my plane.

[Marcel Proulx, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Mr. Kingsley, I realize you did not decide or will not decide on the following issue, but I would like to know what you think about the section in your report dealing with access to multi-residential buildings, to gated communities and other such places. In the past, members of Parliament made sure that candidates could have access to multi-residential buildings. However, there are unanswered questions as far as gated communities are concerned. But I'd like to take that one step further.

Do you think the act should be amended to allow a candidate to access public places such as shopping malls, places of work, be they factories or office buildings, during an election?

How much time do I have left, Mr. Chairman?

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

You're done.

[Marcel Proulx, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

I'll wait for the answers.

[Jean-Pierre Kingsley]

Mr. Chairman, I will try to answer very briefly. As far as removing the names of people who have changed addresses from the electoral lists is concerned, once in a while in the last six years, I know that we have taken measures to ensure that when a person registers on the electoral list during an election, that person is asked wether anyone would have lived in their place of residence previously. We annotate the list to indicate that a person has moved. We do not automatically delete the name. If that person shows up at the polling station, we can ask them.

If there was fraud, I would like to know about it. Again, this is the type of situation I want to hear about when we meet with members of Parliament. That way, we can think of ways to solve the problem.

As far as registering on election day is concerned, you said that some people showed up with a magazine. I would like to know how much time it took election officials to realize that the same magazine was being passed around and that only the sticker had changed. That is a clear case of fraud. In that type of situation, I have to know exactly what happened. I will not tolerate that type of thing for even a second. So I would like to know more about that case.

Lastly, as far as access to gated communities and to public places is concerned, the areas you call public spaces are, in fact, not public. You talked about shopping malls. We were asked this question during the election. Candidates would like to campaign in shopping centres.

As for candidates going into the workplace, I frankly have reservations about that because it is very difficult. If I was still the CEO of a hospital and if candidates wanted to campaign at the hospital over lunchtime in the cafeteria, I would have a big problem with that. However, in a place that is accessible to the public, it is not as difficult, even though it might be designated as a private place under the law.

I am referring to shopping centres and so on. Perhaps we could make places like that more accessible to candidates. However, we should not waste any time in addressing the matter of gated communities by amending the act.