Procedure and House Affairs Committee on May 31st, 2007

[Peter Van Loan, Conservative, York—Simcoe, ON]

It depends which riding you're in, I guess, whether that's a lot of money for a kid or not.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Are we done, then, Monsieur Guimond? You still have a minute and a half, but it sounds as though you have concluded.

Monsieur Godin, and then Madame Robillard.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

I'm sure that eight-year-old kid is going to be happy that he can give $1,100 next time.

I have not really looked at the bill in detail, is there a limit on the amount of the loan?

[Peter Van Loan, Conservative, York—Simcoe, ON]

From a bank?

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Yes.

[Peter Van Loan, Conservative, York—Simcoe, ON]

No.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Candidates can spend up to $60,000 during an election campaign. Does this mean that the loan could be as high as $60,000?

[Peter Van Loan, Conservative, York—Simcoe, ON]

You can take out a loan for whatever amount a bank is willing to give to you. The only limits on the loans are the ones from individuals, which treat them the same as contributions.

The approach under the regime, which as I said parallels the approach under provincial law in Alberta, Manitoba, and Ontario, is that if you're going to have loans, they should only be bank loans, as Mr. Martin has argued, because then you're dealing with a different kind of loan. Individual personal loans have an entirely different element from those of a financial institution that is governed by a law that has to do—

[An hon. member]

What about car dealers?

[Peter Van Loan, Conservative, York—Simcoe, ON]

That too; it's the same thing. Anybody who's not in the business.... Well, I guess car dealers are sometimes in the business of making loans to....

The idea is to focus just on those financial institutions. They will make their loans with their normal commercial approach and with commercial interest rates, being fully aware.... Remember, they're all federally regulated, so they're all cognizant that they have civic obligations, but they are also fully aware that they're going to have the public spotlight shining on them, in that all these things are fully disclosed. So they'll ensure that there is consistency in approach and consistency in treatment.

As I said, though, the practice has been—certainly for riding candidates, for example—to link the loan to the rebate.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Okay, but then going with what Mr. Preston was saying, just so that I understand well, if you want to—and I don't think you will—guarantee my loan, you only could go up to $1,100.

[Peter Van Loan, Conservative, York—Simcoe, ON]

That's correct.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Then I have to find many guarantors, so if I don't pay it, they may be considered contributions.

[Peter Van Loan, Conservative, York—Simcoe, ON]

That's right.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

And if it is paid, that's when it comes back to asking whether I can give money to somebody else, then, in the party.

[Peter Van Loan, Conservative, York—Simcoe, ON]

Well, that's not the case now, but that's what he'd like to be able to do. But certainly the case with banks, as I said, is that most of them realize that's a silly thing. They don't want 60 people doing guarantees, so they ask a candidate how much he or she will spend and what the rebate will be, and they offer a loan for that amount. What they take as a guarantee is the candidate's commitment of the rebate—from the official agent, and the official agent, of course, can do that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Thank you, Mr. Godin.

Madame Robillard.

I should say we're down to our third round, so it's three minutes each question time. Thank you.

[Lucienne Robillard, Liberal, Westmount—Ville-Marie, QC]

You often referred to the Ontario system in your answers to my colleagues' questions, minister. Moreover, I understand from the briefing note we have on the bill, that you looked at the practice in various provinces. I am more familiar with the Quebec Elections Act which does not cover loans to leadership candidates. It is strictly a matter for the political party. In addition, the limit is different from loans and contributions. In Quebec, voters are allowed to make loans. So there is a huge difference between the Quebec Elections Act and the bill you have put forward.

My question is this. I am sure you studied this issue before you came forward with the bill. Do you have a comparative table showing what happened in each province? In other words, do you have a description of the various practices as well as an evaluation of them? Does any provincial system have restrictions as strong as those you are suggesting today? Have they been evaluated?

What problems for nomination candidates are you trying to fix? In the past, was there any abuse in the case of nomination candidates, people who have to borrow $16,000 and who will not be entitled to recover their expenditures? The person has never run before, this is the first time, they have no money, and the bank will not provide a loan. I am trying to see what problems you are trying to fix through this bill.

[Peter Van Loan, Conservative, York—Simcoe, ON]

First, on the issue of the analysis, I have seen my officials do some partial analysis of some of the issues, province by province. I don't think we have all the provinces and I don't think we have all the issues. For example, I can't tell you what the trailing debt is for other provinces, other than in my own experience, because that hasn't been analyzed.

Certainly I would be happy to undertake on their behalf that we have done and provide to the committee analysis of what the loan treatment is, which mostly has been done, but also of such things as trailing debt, which has not been done.

The second aspect of it was about whether candidates for leadership and nomination are regulated in other provinces. Leadership candidates, for example, in Ontario are covered by the electoral disclosure and financing laws. I don't believe the nomination candidates are, however, in Ontario, but of course nomination candidates are now covered by the federal law; they have their spending limits and their contribution limits determined by federal law. What we're trying to do here is provide consistency across all the different kinds of candidates who are regulated.

I believe this has the added benefit of addressing the concern Karen Redman raised about candidates for nomination with lesser means: that they end up on the same level playing field with wealthier individuals and better able to compete.

In fairness, the spending limit—the 20% of what you can spend in a campaign—is probably the greatest element in ensuring that a level playing field applies, and of course it's already in the law.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Thank you.

I'm sorry, we went over on that one. The three minutes are hard to get used to. We may have time. I would remind members that our next witness is here. We have the opportunity to invite the minister back, if it's necessary, but let's see how we do in the next little bit.

Mr. Lukiwski, you are up for three minutes, please.

[Tom Lukiwski, Conservative, Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK]

Thank you.

I have just one quick question, Minister. What provisions are contained in the act for loans between riding associations? In other words, within the Conservative Party, certainly, there are many riding associations, particularly in western Canada, that have significant amounts of money in the bank. They've done very well in fundraising over the years.

Would they be able to lend x amount of dollars—$10,000, $20,000, $30,000—to another riding association between elections, and if so, what provisions are in this?

[Peter Van Loan, Conservative, York—Simcoe, ON]

The provisions generally remain the same, except of course that in dealing with loans there is a new element. Right now, transfers are allowed between riding associations and transfers are permitted between a party and a riding association, generally speaking, though the Chief Electoral Officer was somewhat erratic on the interpretation of convention fees, which were inconsistent with that principle. That principle generally remains law. That principle will continue to apply under this law for loans as well. So loans could be made from one riding association to another, from a party to a riding association, or vice versa.

The difference, though, is that an association is prohibited from contributing to a leadership candidate or to a candidate for nomination. Similarly, they would be prohibited from lending to a candidate for nomination or to a leadership candidate.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

The only name I have left on my list is Madam Redman.

We'll move to Madam Redman, please, for three minutes.

[Karen Redman, Liberal, Kitchener Centre, ON]

Thank you.

I apologize for getting called out to an emergency. I had my colleague—

[Peter Van Loan, Conservative, York—Simcoe, ON]

You missed some great answers.