Evidence of meeting #23 for Procedure and House Affairs in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was code.
A recording is available from Parliament.
12:05 p.m.
Conservative
Harold Albrecht Conservative Kitchener—Conestoga, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Ms. Dawson, for being with us today.
In the interests of actually referring to your report, which I think this committee was charged with today--
12:05 p.m.
Voices
Oh, oh!
12:05 p.m.
Conservative
Harold Albrecht Conservative Kitchener—Conestoga, ON
--I would like to refer to page 14 of your report, where you talk about the forms. At the top of the page, you're talking about a couple of different ways in which an inquiry could be initiated: a request by a member or the House of Commons could compel you to do an investigation. Earlier, you pointed out that you could do it on your own initiative as well.
Further down in that same section, you talk about the fact that you have this form under the act and that you've also produced one for under the code. You're awaiting our instruction on this. I'm certainly open to that.
Prior to that, on page 13, you state in the middle paragraph, “There were five instances where Members of the House of Commons raised concerns with me about possible contraventions....” I guess my concern is that if we have this form that is mandated, that we need to use, many of us around this table are not lawyers. We're not legal experts and we don't know the code inside out.
But as you indicated earlier, if something doesn't pass the smell test in our operation within our constituency or here on the Hill, I guess I would hope that we would still have the opportunity as individual members simply to say, “Here's a concern we have, and we have no idea whether it's a problem or not, but could you please give us your advice?”
Are you still open to those kinds of inquiries without the formal inquiry label attached to it?
12:05 p.m.
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Yes, of course. The purpose of the form is to help people focus on what it is they need to tell me to make it a legitimate request. There are certain requirements in the code. The whole idea behind developing forms was so that it would help the member who wanted to make a complaint pull together the material that we need to have.
12:05 p.m.
Conservative
Harold Albrecht Conservative Kitchener—Conestoga, ON
I think that's good. My concern on the other side of that question is that many of us may simply be paralyzed in even submitting a request because we don't know what section of the code or other legal considerations it refers to. So I'm glad to hear that you're still open to us simply leaving something on your desk and saying, “Would you check into this, formally or informally?”
12:05 p.m.
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
We're available for consultation.
12:05 p.m.
Conservative
October 5th, 2010 / 12:05 p.m.
Conservative
Randy Hoback Conservative Prince Albert, SK
Yes. I'm just curious, what is the process for handling or determining what's a nuisance complaint and what's a legitimate complaint against a member or a public office holder? What do you use for a guideline or for criteria to say “yes, this is worth investigating” or “no, this is just somebody trying to raise a ruckus for no reason at all”?
12:05 p.m.
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Well, basically, the rules are set out there in both the code and the act. We have to know what it is you think they've done wrong. In other words, identify the section in the code or the act that you think has been contravened.
Now, maybe people have a little bit of difficulty figuring out which section, and they can talk to us about that, but the basic rule is that there have to be reasonable grounds shown to us that some offence has been committed. You can't just say that this guy rode his bike down the street or something and therefore you want to lodge a complaint. There has to be something that has some connection with some of the rules in the code or the act.
12:10 p.m.
Conservative
Randy Hoback Conservative Prince Albert, SK
Let me follow up on that, then. If you're seeing a scenario where somebody is pursuing somebody, what is the protection for that member who's being pursued?
12:10 p.m.
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Well, in some of my suggested amendments to the inquiry section, I'm proposing some additional protections, particularly in the area of public release. Sometimes we've had the situation where a complaint has been lodged against a person, but before I've even received the complaint, the person who has made the complaint is out there telling the press that I'm investigating. I think there need to be some strictures around blackening other people's names when nothing has even been done.
As you'll see in the proposals I've made, there's a number of suggestions there.
12:10 p.m.
Bloc
Claude DeBellefeuille Bloc Beauharnois—Salaberry, QC
I have one last little question.
We encourage people to call your office when in doubt. As whips, Mario and I are spreading the word that it's always wiser to call and ask for an opinion. I read your report, and something was not completely clear to me. When I call you, not to ask for a written opinion but rather to simply discuss a matter, I take note of your answer, the date we spoke on and everything else, but I have no proof that I spoke with you.
What kind of record do you keep of the telephone calls you receive from MPs or the individual e-mails they send you even if they do not necessarily ask for a legal opinion, but only for your personal opinion, like in the example Mario brought up earlier? For instance, if issues were raised on the subject, could the fact that our conversation took place and that you remember what you said be considered proof?
12:10 p.m.
Assistant Commissioner, Advisory and Compliance, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
It's very important for our office to keep a record of all the conversations with our clients, with MPs. Every advisor you speak with on a regular basis must make a note in your file for future reference following each conversation. If ever you wanted to go back and really make sure that there was follow up to such and such a matter, you would realize that, in 99% of cases, there would be a note in the file confirming the conversation.
12:10 p.m.
Bloc
Claude DeBellefeuille Bloc Beauharnois—Salaberry, QC
You said that you were contacted many times. More than 300 telephone calls and e-mails were received by your office. Does that mean that there are 300 notes in MPs' files that can be consulted and used as references?
12:10 p.m.
Assistant Commissioner, Advisory and Compliance, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Exactly.
12:10 p.m.
Bloc
Claude DeBellefeuille Bloc Beauharnois—Salaberry, QC
Ms. Dawson, if we encourage our MPs to err on the side of caution by calling you, do you think that your team and the financial and human resources support available to you can handle the increase in the number of consultation calls to your office?
12:10 p.m.
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
I think so. There is a balance between having enough staff to do something and “coherence”... Is that the right word?
12:10 p.m.
General Counsel, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Consistency.
12:10 p.m.
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Yes, the coherence of the opinions. If there are too many people who issue opinions, then coherence can become a problem. I think that we have a good many people who do that.
12:10 p.m.
Bloc
12:10 p.m.
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Yes, I think so.
12:10 p.m.
Conservative
