Go ahead.
Evidence of meeting #49 for Procedure and House Affairs in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was costs.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Evidence of meeting #49 for Procedure and House Affairs in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was costs.
A recording is available from Parliament.
2:05 p.m.
NDP
Pat Martin NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB
It seems to me, Ministers, that instead of the Truth in Sentencing Act, we need a truth in budgeting act. It's like pulling teeth trying to get this information out of you.
How could you have compiled this fat a book and failed to include the capital costs of billions of dollars to build new jails, when you knew full well that what we wanted to know was the whole cost of your crime legislation agenda--this suite of bills?
2:05 p.m.
Conservative
Vic Toews Conservative Provencher, MB
To that, then, where in the motion, Mr. Martin--and I'm not trying to be difficult here, but--
2:05 p.m.
NDP
2:05 p.m.
Conservative
Vic Toews Conservative Provencher, MB
No, no; hold it.
There are certain requests for crime bills, very specific bills. We've responded to those specific bills. If you and I want to have that discussion about what the costs of the prisons are, that's another issue. That's $2.1 billion over five years, but that has nothing to do with--
2:05 p.m.
Conservative
Vic Toews Conservative Provencher, MB
No, and it has nothing to do with the issue before the committee today.
2:10 p.m.
NDP
Pat Martin NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB
It's like the Rumpelstiltskin defence, where if you don't ask the exact right question, you don't get any answer at all.
I mean, poor Scotty there did his best to put together a comprehensive question, and you skated all around it by answering every question except what we need to know--namely, how much is this going to cost us?
2:10 p.m.
Conservative
Vic Toews Conservative Provencher, MB
Mr. Martin, if I started answering questions that you didn't ask, you'd say I was evading the question.
2:10 p.m.
Conservative
Vic Toews Conservative Provencher, MB
Why don't you simply ask the questions that you need answered on the basis of the motion that's here?
2:10 p.m.
NDP
Pat Martin NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB
You are splitting hairs to avoid what we really need to know.
Mr. Head there is going to hire 4,000 new prison guards, but is that figure in here? Your $2 billion for building new jails isn't in here. There will be 4,000 new staff persons. Every other government agency is cutting and hacking and slashing every social program by which we define ourselves as Canadians, and his budget is exploding to lock up all these young aboriginal kids--stack them up like cordwood--in prisons.
That's what we're looking at here, and that figure for the 4,000 new staff people for Corrections Canada is not in this book.
2:10 p.m.
Conservative
Vic Toews Conservative Provencher, MB
Well, look, we've given you the information that you've requested. If--
2:10 p.m.
NDP