Evidence of meeting #49 for Procedure and House Affairs in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was costs.
A recording is available from Parliament.
2 p.m.
Conservative
Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON
If I might be of some help to you, what you want is information, and I take you at your word: you want to know what costs, if any, are attributable to either the various departments or various--
2 p.m.
Conservative
Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON
Presumably that's what you want. It's not? Then go right ahead.
2 p.m.
Bloc
Pierre Paquette Bloc Joliette, QC
I have a lot of trouble understanding why some information that you were prepared to deliver on February 17 was considered to be confidential or a Cabinet confidence, on December 1. That is something I cannot understand and it definitely shakes my confidence as a parliamentarian.
Furthermore, in order to determine whether the information you have provided does indeed reflect what the Standing Committee on Finance and the House were asking for, we need to know on what basis the estimates were developed. How many inmates are you projecting? Also, what is your unit cost per inmate? Once again, we need to know the underlying assumptions in each case. What is the cost per full-time equivalent? Also, what is the cost of the new cells?
So, once again, I am not convinced that we have all the information requested by the Standing Committee on Finance and the House of Commons—I would remind you that a motion was passed on February 17—nor am I convinced that the information you are providing is adequate to allow us to ascertain the veracity of the figures here. We will have an opportunity in the coming days to find out more.
2 p.m.
Conservative
Vic Toews Conservative Provencher, MB
Let me just respond to that.
The committee and the Speaker haven't requested anything to do with the prison costs. There is nothing. This is only to do with the crime bills.
If the committee wants information on the cost of the prisons, which I've indicated in the $2.1 billion figure--the $800 million in construction costs and the $1.2 billion in operating costs over the five years--the department can provide that to you, but the motion doesn't relate to those kinds of costs; it relates to the implementation of bills, and that's what we've responded to.
2:05 p.m.
Conservative
2:05 p.m.
NDP
Yvon Godin NDP Acadie—Bathurst, NB
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Welcome to you all.
Why, when the question about these bills was posed in the Chamber, did the Government House Leader say that some documents were Cabinet confidences? Today, you are saying that is not the case, that they are not Cabinet confidences, that we have everything, and that you are giving us everything. Are they Cabinet confidences or are they not?
2:05 p.m.
Conservative
Vic Toews Conservative Provencher, MB
These aren't cabinet confidence documents; this is information that was compiled by public servants in order to respond to the motion and to the ruling that the Speaker made. These are not--
2:05 p.m.
NDP
Yvon Godin NDP Acadie—Bathurst, NB
Do you feel that on February 17, after you deposited that and the request was made, that's what the committee was looking for?
2:05 p.m.
Conservative
2:05 p.m.
NDP
Yvon Godin NDP Acadie—Bathurst, NB
Okay. My question is this: do you think that what you're answering to the Speaker of the House is what the committee was looking for too? Do you think that the committee should be satisfied with this?
2:05 p.m.
Conservative
Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON
Well, it was examined very, very carefully. To go back to what Monsieur Paquette said, all the departments associated with this.... As you can imagine, it's very complicated. The costs don't rest just with one particular part of the Government of Canada.
Whether it's public prosecutions or the RCMP, all that information has been assembled in response to the request. They checked every single one of these bills, as you can see. For every bill that was requested, you get a complete analysis of what, if any, the costs are that we are--
2:05 p.m.
NDP
Yvon Godin NDP Acadie—Bathurst, NB
But do you think the Speaker is going with the requests of the committee?
2:05 p.m.
Conservative
Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON
Are you asking me what the Speaker is doing? I'm sure the Speaker responds in the appropriate way. The Speaker thinks in terms of--
2:05 p.m.
NDP
Yvon Godin NDP Acadie—Bathurst, NB
Why didn't you respond to the committee when they asked for it? Why did you wait until we had to come here and spend all the taxpayers' money to bring us to Ottawa to give us this and tell us, “Here you go”?
2:05 p.m.
Conservative
Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON
Many of them are already.... Parts of what we are saying are already.... For instance, the National Anti-Drug Strategy is one of the questions we've already announced. These are part of the public record. In February we assembled the costs and gave them to you, to the extent that it's possible to know them or to know if there are any costs.
2:05 p.m.
NDP
Yvon Godin NDP Acadie—Bathurst, NB
You said you could not give anything because you were under cabinet secrecy.
2:05 p.m.
Conservative
Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON
Again, if you ask for cabinet documents, obviously you know our system. Presumably you wouldn't want that or ask for that, but if you're looking for information with respect to the costs of each of these bills, you've got it all--and you had it, but this is in greater detail.
2:05 p.m.
NDP
Yvon Godin NDP Acadie—Bathurst, NB
How much is it going to cost for the parole aspect of the crime bill, for example? Mr. Toews, you want to talk about the crime bill, but if the parole--
2:05 p.m.
Conservative
Vic Toews Conservative Provencher, MB
All right, let's take a look specifically at that bill. Which bill is it? Is that Bill C-39?
Yes, I see it's Bill C-39, An Act to amend the Corrections and Conditional Release Act and to make consequential amendments to other Acts. What do we want to talk about there?
2:05 p.m.
NDP
Yvon Godin NDP Acadie—Bathurst, NB
For example, if a person stays in jail for 10 years before he is under parole, with the bill he will have to stay for 25 years. Are the next 15 years free for the taxpayer, or do we have to pay for it, and if we pay for it, how much is it going to cost?
2:05 p.m.
Conservative
Vic Toews Conservative Provencher, MB
It in fact is set out in Bill C-39 what our anticipated costs are for that particular bill.
Mr. Head, the commissioner, is here. He can explain it. He put the estimates together, and I'm relying on the estimates of Mr. Head.
