Evidence of meeting #12 for Procedure and House Affairs in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was commission.
A recording is available from Parliament.
12:25 p.m.
NDP
Chris Charlton NDP Hamilton Mountain, ON
Thank you.
I'm sorry, but that just triggered a different question. Has it ever been the case where there was no consensus by a commission on a set of boundaries—and how were those resolved?
12:30 p.m.
Lawyer, Member of the Federal Electoral Boundaries Commission for Quebec (2004), As an Individual
I don't know. There was no such case on our commission. I don't believe there was any. There has previously been one incident. That was in another province; it wasn't in Quebec, but I forget exactly where it was.
During the last commission in New Brunswick, when they took the courses, I know that they talked about establishing a specific riding to represent the aboriginal community. However, people asked what could be done to enable aboriginal people to be part of a single riding. An appeal was even instituted in court, and an amendment was subsequently made.
In short, that is the only occasion that I know of where there was any particular discussion.
12:30 p.m.
Lawyer, Member of the Federal Electoral Boundaries Commission for Quebec (2004), As an Individual
I don't think it's possible to have volatile ridings, that is to say to have people make up a riding that simply represents a nation. People have to be from a single place.
We tried to place the community of interest in one riding in particular. That's what you have to do; otherwise it would be very different. You would be making up ridings for every different community, every nation. That's impossible.
12:30 p.m.
NDP
Chris Charlton NDP Hamilton Mountain, ON
Thank you.
That leads me to my next set of questions, because I want to follow up a little on the notion of communities of interest, which are so important as you're designing the boundaries. I know in my riding, for example, that there are three municipal wards within it. To some extent our political boundaries actually help to identify the community. Because we hold community meetings, people consider themselves part of the mountain, or part of ward 6 or ward 7 or ward 8.
Under some proposals before us, we would actually be reducing those ridings and tearing apart those communities of interest, which have in some instances been established over long periods of time, because the political infrastructure has led them to become a community of interest, if for no other reason. Could you first make a general comment about whether it is easier to add or subtract ridings in the work that you're doing, in terms of the representations you receive?
12:30 p.m.
Lawyer, Member of the Federal Electoral Boundaries Commission for Quebec (2004), As an Individual
I don't change anything. But it will be so hard in the two-way.
12:30 p.m.
NDP
Chris Charlton NDP Hamilton Mountain, ON
So when you're looking at communities of interest, you're balancing geography as one part of it. You're also balancing traditional.... Well, I don't know....
Why don't you tell me all of the things that you would include in a community of interest as you try to define what they are geographically?
12:30 p.m.
Lawyer, Member of the Federal Electoral Boundaries Commission for Quebec (2004), As an Individual
Based on the arguments the community presented, we tried as much as possible to unify those people in the riding where they actually were, so as not to divide them.
That said, sometimes the community of interest is completely different from what you think. For some people, the community of interest was defined on the basis of personal interests, not those of the community in general. Those kinds of presentations made to us were funny, but we did not go down that path. We tried to bring together the people who asked us if they could be in a specific place, in other words who felt more comfortable in a given location.
I'll give you a very specific example. In southern Beauce, there are three municipalities that are not part of the Beauce, but rather of Mégantic—L'Érable. The representatives of those municipalities came and specifically asked the commission if they could be attached to the Beauce. When we looked at the ridings, we found that strange and didn't understand why. The people explained to us that their interests leaned in that direction because they did business with Beauce. Their community was in Saint-George de Beauce. Their interests were in Saint-George de Beauce. So it was hard to say no to them. The mayors of the three municipalities came together to take the necessary steps and they said the same thing. In our minds, they were part of the other riding. However, a genuine break appeared before us. So we agreed.
12:30 p.m.
Conservative
12:30 p.m.
Liberal
Stéphane Dion Liberal Saint-Laurent—Cartierville, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Thank you for being with us, Mr. Cayer.
There was the case of the Saint-Laurent industrial park which was at risk of going to Pierrefonds—Dollard. You kindly decided to leave it in the circle of decision-makers of Saint-Laurent—Cartierville. That's another aspect that has to be considered, when there is an industrial park that's important to the entire country. You considered the economic interests of the centre of the country by keeping it in the fold of decision-makers of Saint-Laurent—Cartierville.
The government is determined to quickly pass this bill. So we're in a hurry. I would like to know very specifically what amendments you would recommend to the bill.
12:35 p.m.
Lawyer, Member of the Federal Electoral Boundaries Commission for Quebec (2004), As an Individual
There are the two periods I spoke to you about, those of 23 and 53 days. The eight-month period should also be extended to one year at the outset.
12:35 p.m.
Lawyer, Member of the Federal Electoral Boundaries Commission for Quebec (2004), As an Individual
I'll give you the details; I've noted them down. People have a period of 53 days following publication of the notice to send written notice to the commission to appear before it. The amendment to the act provides that the notice of people interested in appearing will have to be sent within 23 days. Within that period, it takes at least a week for the commission to consider the comments of the interested parties. Consequently, the period of 53 days should be 60 days and the period of 23 days should be increased to 30 days.
12:35 p.m.
Liberal
Stéphane Dion Liberal Saint-Laurent—Cartierville, QC
You propose extending the period of 53 days to 60 days and that of 23 days to 30 days.
12:35 p.m.
Lawyer, Member of the Federal Electoral Boundaries Commission for Quebec (2004), As an Individual
That's correct.
The other problem concerns subsection 19(2) of the act, which reads as follows:
(2) Notice of the time and place fixed by the commission for any sittings to be held by it for the hearing of representations from interested persons shall be given by advertisement published in the Canada Gazette and in at least one newspaper of general circulation in the province at least sixty days before the commencement of the sittings.
They want to reduce that period to only 30 days. That doesn't give people much time. They are proposing 30 days, but you need 60. People have to prepare briefs, meet, decide to send a brief. I don't see anyone preparing a brief in 30 days. We even accepted briefs after that time period because we felt the period was too short.
12:35 p.m.
Liberal
Stéphane Dion Liberal Saint-Laurent—Cartierville, QC
To be very clear, it must be noted that the figures you are giving us are those that appear in the present act, and you're asking that there be no change to those periods.
12:35 p.m.
Lawyer, Member of the Federal Electoral Boundaries Commission for Quebec (2004), As an Individual
That's correct, and that's the case for both those periods. The other changes don't trouble us.
12:35 p.m.
Liberal
12:35 p.m.
Lawyer, Member of the Federal Electoral Boundaries Commission for Quebec (2004), As an Individual
There are three in all.
12:35 p.m.
Liberal
Stéphane Dion Liberal Saint-Laurent—Cartierville, QC
Would it be possible for you to submit the specific sections to which you refer to the committee clerk so that there is no confusion in our minds?
12:35 p.m.
Lawyer, Member of the Federal Electoral Boundaries Commission for Quebec (2004), As an Individual
That's fine. As regards the 23-day period, that corresponds to subsection 19(5) of the act, which the bill would amend under subclause 8(2).
It states:
(2) Notice of the time and place fixed by the commission for any sittings to be held by it for the hearing of representations from interested parties shall be given by advertisement published in the Canada Gazette and in at least one newspaper of general circulation in the province at least thirty days before the day on which the sittings commence.
Here a period of 30 days is proposed, but I think the current period of 60 days is more appropriate.
12:35 p.m.
Liberal
12:35 p.m.
Lawyer, Member of the Federal Electoral Boundaries Commission for Quebec (2004), As an Individual
That's correct. The former subsection 19(5) of the act is amended by subclause 8(2) of the bill.
12:35 p.m.
Liberal
Stéphane Dion Liberal Saint-Laurent—Cartierville, QC
Mr. Cayer, perhaps it would be useful for you to send us everything in writing.
I'm going to tell you what the problem is. The chief electoral officer and his predecessor, Mr. Kingsley recommended those changes to us. You, who were on the ground and had to do the work, are telling us that these changes shouldn't be made. They recommended them to us. When Elections Canada talks, we tend to listen.
12:35 p.m.
Lawyer, Member of the Federal Electoral Boundaries Commission for Quebec (2004), As an Individual
They may have wanted to shorten the periods. I'm telling you I experienced those kinds of situations. You have to understand that not all those people sit on the commissions on a full-time basis. In some weeks, we had to sit on Saturdays. I can't imagine the commissions sitting on a full-time basis in any case.
Some preparation requires more time than you think. There are 75 ridings. I don't know whether anyone has thought seriously about this. Ontario even has 108, I believe; I didn't take a direct interest in that. Whatever the case may be, it takes time to check each of the proposals from each of the communities. You can't do it quickly. You don't want to botch the job.
