Procedure and House Affairs Committee on March 26th, 2013

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

Thank you.

Mr. Dion.

[Stéphane Dion, Liberal, Saint-Laurent—Cartierville, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

The argument we hear today is extraordinary, that it would be against the political culture of one of our provinces to create urban ridings. Everywhere else we have heard colleagues in this committee telling us the commission wants to merge their rural region with a city, and they object. I read in the Leader-Post that we don't see Thunder Bay divided four ways so that northern Ontario ridings are made smaller. It does not exist elsewhere.

So the claim that it would be against the political culture of Saskatchewan makes Saskatchewan the distinct society of electoral boundaries.

I have some familiarity, Mr. Chair, with this argument of distinct society, that we are so distinct from the rest of the country that we need to do things completely differently. I have challenged that in my province. I would like to briefly challenge that here and ask if Saskatchewan is really so distinct on the rural-urban issue.

I'm puzzled by the number of people from Saskatchewan who support the recommendation of Professor Courtney and Justice Mills. As a political scientist I have a strong regard for Professor Courtney, as do all political scientists in Canada. By the way, it's not only the political scientists of Regina and Saskatoon who said these recommendations make sense. I have here a letter from Charlie Clark, a city councillor from Saskatoon, who supports these recommendations. The Saskatchewan Urban Municipalities Association supports this recommendation. I understand not all their members do, but the association does, and they have compelling arguments to make that point.

I have an editorial from The StarPhoenix dismissing the claim that 75% of the submissions were in favour of the current urban-rural split as largely, and I quote them—it's not me, it's The StarPhoenix—because of “pre-formatted postcards distributed to supporters by Conservative MPs”. This is what is said in your province, in an editorial in the Leader Post supporting the recommendations, and so on.

Mr. Goodale, how strong is the support for the status quo in your distinct and lovely province?

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Wascana, SK]

Obviously there are differences of opinion when anything touches on a political topic in Saskatchewan. That's just the nature of the beast.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

It's not just Saskatchewan.

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Wascana, SK]

You mean that happens outside Saskatchewan too? My Lord.

People are on different sides of the equation, Mr. Dion, wanting to avoid partisanship as much as possible. The city councils of Regina and Saskatoon have both declined to take official positions. Some individual members of council have taken positions. In Saskatoon, for example, Mayor Atchison and Councillor Donauer opposed the new map, but seven councillors, at least—Clark, Hill, Iwanchuk, Jeffries, Loewen, Lorje, and Paulsen—support the new map.

In Regina the new mayor and council are officially neutral. Privately, several councillors and former councillors are supportive of the new map: Councillor Burnett and others on the current council, former Councillors Browne and Clipsham on the previous council.

In Prince Albert, current councillor and former mayor, Don Cody is supportive.

In Moose Jaw, Councillor Mitchell is supportive.

In the north, Chief Tammy Cook-Searson and the entire council of the Lac La Ronge First Nation, which is a very large first nation in northern Saskatchewan, are supportive.

Bob Hale in Swift Current and the editorial boards of both the Saskatoon StarPhoenix and the Regina Leader-Post have indicated their support, as have the majority of the political science departments of both the University of Saskatchewan and the University of Regina.

Then, of course, SUMA—as you point out, the Saskatchewan Urban Municipal Association represents a broad cross-section of opinion, and they submitted a very strong brief to the boundaries commission that was quoted at length in the commission.

SUMA represents communities in which about 75% to 80% of Saskatchewan people live, and they obviously hold a strong view with respect to the validity and the importance of the new map.

[Stéphane Dion, Liberal, Saint-Laurent—Cartierville, QC]

Thank you very much.

Maybe some of my other colleagues might react to that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

Yes, in the 15 seconds that are left.

[Ed Komarnicki, Conservative, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

Well, 15 seconds doesn't allow much, except to say that when you look at the population of Saskatchewan and the history of Saskatchewan, there's nothing in the change of population that would demand or indicate a fundamental change of the nature that the professors were talking about. It was something they wanted to try out in Saskatchewan, and Saskatchewan's not ready for that. You could increase the population of Regina with the four present members significantly before you have an urban-only riding.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

Thank you.

Mr. MacKenzie.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Minister Ritz, I think my colleague was asking about Skype, and the difference between Skype and face-to-face conversation is obviously tremendously different. I wonder if you'd elaborate a little bit on his question.

In many rural parts of Canada, high-speed Internet is not readily available. I'm wondering if you have any idea of whether or not Skype is very practical in many parts of rural Saskatchewan.

[Gerry Ritz, Conservative, Battlefords—Lloydminster, SK]

As practical as it may be, it still comes down to a privacy issue when you're discussing those types of things with a constituent. You would well know how many people want a face-to-face appointment. I know there aren't too many weeks that go by that I don't spend as much time as I can in the riding, and it's difficult as a minister. Having said that, when I do, I have face-to-face meetings. I do some work by phone, and I do some work by e-mail from here, to scope out what it is they want to discuss, but at the end of the day they still want that face-to-face meeting in order to make their points and to move forward on the issues.

Skype is certainly an option. At times, if you're speaking to a group.... I'll use it if I can't get back to a chamber meeting, just to make sure my presence is there, but it is still logistically problematic in most areas. Even in areas that have high-speed, it's still problematic, with weather interference and different things like that. You've got that time delay, and it's not as usable as it could possibly be.

I felt it was an offhand remark that really missed the whole idea of serviceability in a riding. Your presence has to be felt. We have to be seen doing our job day-to-day on the ground, and Skype just doesn't get that done. So it was just an offhand comment by Justice Mills that I thought really proved the point that he didn't understand the nature of face to face. Mr. Armstrong made the point of asking if he would run a court case that way. No, legally that would just be untenable.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

Mr. Komarnicki, earlier in your testimony you mentioned the history, and I'm wondering if you could just give us an overview of that again. I think you're making the point, certainly to me, that we haven't seen any reason for the big change. There is not a huge population explosion taking place in Saskatchewan. There's no obvious reason it would demand the big change that is being advised by two members but not by the third. I wonder if you could just give us a bit of the history again. I think you went back to 1933.

[Ed Komarnicki, Conservative, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

In fact, even before 1933, up to 1933, there was an urban-rural mix. It's just the nature of Saskatchewan. In 1965 they set it out more predominantly, and it's been the case every year thereafter.

With four urban-rural ridings in Regina, let's say, with the provincial quotient at 73,813, multiply that by four and you get 295,000. If you did nothing, just at the provincial quotient, Regina could grow to a population of 295,000 before you would have an urban-only riding, if you went with history.

Right now Regina has a population of 193,000. If you did the 15%, which could go up or down, and I suggest that in this case in Saskatchewan it would be an appropriate thing to do, Regina would have to grow to 369,000 people before you'd need a change. Now, that's not the fact.... The population numbers don't justify a fundamental shift, because if you kept the four urban-rural mixes in Regina, you could go for quite a number of years.

To say that Regina and Saskatoon are growing.... In fact, we have cities in Souris—Moose Mountain, in my riding, that are growing at the rate of 9% and 11% or so more than Regina or Saskatoon, because of the oil and gas industry and because of the explosion of the economy in Saskatchewan. Actually, the southeast in the last five years has surpassed the percentage growth in Regina and Saskatoon. I would dare say that in the next five years the population will increase similarly by 5,000 people.

So what are these commissioners doing by saying that the time has come in Saskatchewan to make a fundamental change? The time has not come in Saskatchewan to make a fundamental change. It may, but Regina and Saskatoon would have to grow a significant degree before we'd have to say we need urban-only ridings. You could always split it once again. They're small cities; they're not large cities.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

Thank you.

You have about 20 seconds left, if you'd like to pontificate.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

Mr. Anderson, I wonder if you would comment on the availability of Skype in your riding.

[David Anderson, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

If you take a look at my riding...obviously, it's a large rural area. We do not have high-speed Internet access across the complete riding. We have some coverage there, but this is an issue. We can provide e-mails and those kinds of things. You can obviously do that with most people, but in terms of setting up anything realistic for Skype in that riding, it's not practical. It just shows that people don't understand what they're talking about when they make those kinds of suggestions.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

Thank you very much.

I have Mr. Cullen and Mr. Scott sharing, I think.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Yes.

Just very briefly, Minister Ritz, you said earlier that Saskatoon and Regina are the two fastest growing urban populations in the country. Is that right?

[Gerry Ritz, Conservative, Battlefords—Lloydminster, SK]

That's according to a StatsCan report, with the youngest demographics on top of that.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

In terms of Mr. Komarnicki's “time has come” question and the growth of those urban interests, one of the predominant factors for the commission is looking at communities of interest.

Mr. Goodale, I'm confused with the idea that somebody working 500 acres has exactly the same community of interest as somebody living in a 700-square-foot loft in Regina, that their interests are the same, and that their representation is so complete under this unique model in Saskatchewan that it applies nowhere else in the country.

Is a community of interest satisfied by the idea of keeping the status quo?

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Wascana, SK]

I don't think so, Mr. Cullen, and there were many people who made representations before the commission who didn't think so as well.

Obviously, in a province like Saskatchewan, from one end to the other, we have a lot in common. We have a lot of community patriotism. We feel very strongly about our province—

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

You're talking about the Roughriders explicitly, right?

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Wascana, SK]

And we celebrate it. We fight against daylight savings time and all of those things.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Yes, you have, successfully.

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Wascana, SK]

There's a real instinct in Saskatchewan about our province. It's a province of great variety, of great diversity. The mixing together of all manner of communities in the way the existing map does tends to obscure that diversity. It muffles the voices. It makes it more difficult for some people to make themselves heard and to see themselves reflected in their parliament. That's an important issue, and the commission talked about that. If people chronically feel that somehow they are prevented from seeing themselves reflected in their parliament, then they begin to drop out of the political process. I think that's bad for democracy.