Procedure and House Affairs Committee on April 25th, 2023

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Good morning, everyone.

I call the meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 65 of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs.

The committee is meeting today to continue its study of foreign election interference.

Throughout this morning's meeting, as we have an evening meeting as well, we would like to extend a special welcome to the Canada and international politics grade 12 class who, with their teacher, Ms. Buchanan, are visiting Ottawa today from Havergal College in Toronto. When they stop by, do say hello.

The clerk and I will maintain a consolidated speaking list of members wishing to speak.

As per the motion that was passed by this committee, we are getting through all of the names of everyone who should have been invited.

I would like to note that Mr. Walied Solomon was invited but was unable to attend. We have extended invitations to Jenni Byrne and Tausha Michaud, and we hope to have them scheduled very shortly.

With us today are Jeremy Broadhurst, senior adviser to the Prime Minister; and Azam Ishmael, national director, Liberal Party of Canada. For the second panel, we will have with us Mr. Fred DeLorey, former national campaign manager for the Conservative Party; and by video conference, we will have Mr. Hamish Marshall, partner, research, One Persuasion Inc.

Do I see a hand up, Mr. Fergus?

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Madam Chair, did you say that Mr. Soliman had not yet responded? Did he refuse the invitation?

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

We asked him to come today, but it wasn't possible. We offered another date and were told it was not possible.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

The committee sent an invitation to the campaign directors for every political party. I hope he'll accept our invitation. Otherwise, what are our options?

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

It's up to the committee members to decide on options. We'll proceed with the invitation process. If Mr. Soliman can't come and testify before the committee, that information will be sent to you. Today, it was not possible. We asked if he could come on Thursday, and that wasn't possible either. We will try one more time. You will be informed of his answer.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Very well.

I don't want to take more of the committee's time, but I wanted to give you a heads up on that point.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

All right.

Ms. O'Connell, you have the floor.

[Jennifer O'Connell, Liberal, Pickering—Uxbridge, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I don't want to take up too much time either, but I do think that it should be noted that it was a motion this committee passed. The Conservatives spent an enormous amount of time demanding that Katie Telford appear. She did so, and so have all the other witnesses to date.

I would strongly recommend that this individual, if not available today or Thursday, provide dates for when he is available. I would hate to go down the line of questioning that the Conservatives had, where we have to wonder what he is hiding and why he is not making himself available.

Madam Chair, I leave it in your strong leadership hands to handle the scheduling of meetings, but I certainly would want to ensure that everyone invited appear, given the stink that the Conservatives made about making sure that all witnesses be here.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

I have Mr. Calkins on the list followed by Monsieur Berthold.

I would like to get to our panel. We can definitely have this conversation afterwards. I was providing information to keep the committee apprised of our current status.

Go ahead, Mr. Calkins.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Red Deer—Lacombe, AB]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I'm under no illusion about what's being attempted right here. Perhaps you or the clerk could edify the committee, Madam Chair, as to when Mr. Solomon was contacted by the committee so we can provide a timeline. Maybe it's something as simple as he was just contacted yesterday, and this week didn't work for him. Could that be a possible explanation?

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Mr. Solomon was contacted, along with all other members. The contact information has since been updated. The clerk received the updated contact information on the weekend and extended the invitation on Sunday with the new information. The information we originally had was the same, so that's where we continue.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Red Deer—Lacombe, AB]

All right.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

What I can confirm is that emails are being responded to, and we continue to ensure that we have our witnesses appear. We'll keep you apprised.

Go ahead, Monsieur Berthold.

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

No, that's fine.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

That's perfect, thank you.

With that, we will start with our opening comments.

I will pass the floor to Mr. Ishmael.

Combined, Mr. Ishmael and Mr. Broadhurst, you will have 10 minutes.

Welcome to procedure and House affairs.

[Azam Ishmael, National Director, Liberal Party of Canada]

Thank you, Madam Chair and members of the committee.

As I was introduced, I'm the national director of the Liberal Party of Canada and was the national campaign director for the 2021 general campaign.

I'm pleased to be with you today and to accept the invitation to act as a witness for your study of foreign election interference.

The integrity of Canadian democracy is of paramount importance not only for my organization, but also for me personally.

As a political professional who has worked hard for many years to build a reputation for integrity, compliance, diligence and prudence, with a track record of success, I'm pleased to be able to participate in the committee's work today and do everything in my power to shed light on the issues pertaining to your study.

A fair bit has been said in the press about this matter. In making my remarks today and in answering your questions, I will be subject to two limitations.

First, I would caution that some of your questions may touch on information that has been provided to me in reliance on a security clearance granted to me under Canada's security clearance program. As a result, I'm prohibited from sharing such classified information as a matter of law. While I appreciate and respect the breadth of the committee's privilege to asking questions, I cannot violate my legal obligations of confidentiality or risk national security in answering those questions.

Second, from my review of previous transcripts of your meetings, it appears that some of the matters you are reviewing may relate to content of short meetings or interactions occurring during the midst of an incredibly intense and busy election campaign some years ago. While I will make every effort to be forthright with the committee about my recollections, the candid truth is that I do not recall the details of every discussion I had during these campaigns.

Broadly, let me assure the committee of three things, each to the very best of my knowledge, information and belief.

First, at no time during my tenure as national director has the Liberal Party of Canada knowingly accepted support from, or turned a blind eye to interference in a Canadian election by, any foreign state. We have not tacitly accepted the help of any foreign state, nor have we encouraged it.

Second, the Liberal Party of Canada has extensive compliance measures in place to ensure strict adherence to the Canada Elections Act and other applicable laws by our candidates, nomination contestants and campaign teams. That includes extensive training, detailed audit support and compliance functions, and centralized coordination of many campaign resources. We also have rules governing the conduct of nomination campaigns and party processes in order to build confidence in the public's participation in the political process at every stage.

As with all political parties, we of course cannot credibly speak to the actions of every one of the tens of thousands of volunteers, campaign workers, fundraisers and supporters across the country. However, we are confident in our compliance protocols.

Third, I want to say that I am extremely proud of the work done from coast to coast by the Liberal Party of Canada's election campaign staff and volunteers to help protect our democratic process.

We all have a role to play in preventing foreign interference in our elections. I'm proud to be working for a national party that enjoys support and participation from millions of Canadians representing all facets of society.

Madam Chair, I wish very much that I could share all of the details of this matter with this committee, because I'm very confident that such a review would clearly show that the decisions taken by me and other Liberal officials were beyond reproach. We can disagree with other parties on policy, but we have all consistently sought to do the right thing as it relates to protecting Canada's democracy against foreign interference.

Unfortunately, some of those details cannot be shared here. In that regard, you'll have to defer to the classified review processes that have been put in place to address the situation, including the review of the special rapporteur.

I appreciate the committee's attention to this matter and, subject to the foregoing cautions, I'd be happy to answer any questions you have.

[Jeremy Broadhurst, Senior Advisor to the Prime Minister, Office of the Prime Minister]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

My name is Jeremy Broadhurst. I currently work in the Prime Minister's Office as a senior adviser to the Prime Minister.

In spring 2019, I took an unpaid leave of absence from my then job as chief of staff to the Minister of Foreign Affairs to act as the national campaign director for the Liberal Party of Canada in the 2019 election.

The study this committee is currently engaged on combines two subject matters that my career in politics and government have given me considerable exposure to.

The first of these matters is Canada's intelligence activity, and specifically the efforts to combat foreign interference in our country. While I have had a small role in the government's efforts to combat foreign interference, both in the PMO and from my time at Global Affairs, I have been asked today to appear specifically due to my role in the 2019 election campaign.

Allegations of attempts at interference in our political process by state actors are extremely disturbing and have been taken very seriously by the government, and, I believe, by all the political parties.

It is important to also remember that in 2019 we also saw attempts by interest groups with no obvious affiliation with any state, who worked from outside our country to deliberately pollute our political landscape with lies and ideological propaganda designed to smear the reputation of politicians and confuse and discourage Canadians, who may otherwise have been enthusiastic participants in our political system.

The Liberal Party of Canada has gone to considerable efforts, which we would be happy to discuss, to diminish the impacts of all types of foreign interference. The Liberal Party always stands ready to assist the appropriate authorities in our efforts to combat foreign interference, and the party does try to assist our candidates and volunteers to recognize potential vulnerabilities and when they are being targeted. It is worth noting that what has been lost in recent public dialogue concerning foreign interference is that politicians are most often the victim of this type of interference, but they have not always had the tools necessary to recognize it and prevent it.

The other issue I play a role on in this committee's study is the rights and privileges of parliamentarians. I have worked in the offices of backbenchers and ministers. I have worked in opposition and in government. I have a deep and profound respect for Parliament, its members, and the work they do. I have always been committed to the idea that in order to fulfill the work they are sent to Ottawa by the voters to do, members of Parliament need to have access to some extraordinary powers and privileges.

One instance from the past that I was involved with stands out to me, as I think about your work today. From 2009 to 2011, I served as the director of parliamentary affairs to the leader of the opposition as we engaged in a protracted struggle with the Conservative government of the day over Parliament's right to have access to documents pertaining to the treatment and transfer of Afghan detainees.

The struggle eventually culminated in a historic ruling by then Speaker Peter Milliken, who ruled that parliamentarians did have the right to have access to documents even if they contained sensitive national security information that would have otherwise restricted their distribution. However, throughout that struggle the opposition members from all parties never asserted that this parliamentary privilege was unfettered. They understood that privileges always come with corresponding responsibilities.

At that time, even with the power of the Speaker's ruling in hand, the opposition parties knew that it would be a breach of that responsibility to seek access to the documents in question without appropriate safeguards to protect Canada's national security interests.

To that end, all the opposition parties negotiated with the government, and eventually the Bloc Québécois and the Liberal Party arrived at an agreement with the government surrounding the controlled access to the documents in question. The parties designated select members who would obtain the appropriate security clearance, and who would then be granted access to those documents in a secured location.

The right of parliamentarians to have access to the material they needed to hold the government to account was respected without compromising national security. It's worth noting that nothing ever leaked. The privilege was exercised with responsibility.

Influenced by this experience, our current Prime Minister pledged in 2015 to establish a permanent committee of parliamentarians who would be cleared to review top secret material. From that commitment came the creation of NSICOP.

By enshrining those safeguards, in effect, codifying the responsibility, the existence of NSICOP ensures that no government, current or future, can deny a request for information or testimony on the grounds that the information can't be delivered in a safe and secure manner.

Currently, it has been announced that NSICOP is reviewing the very same matter this committee is seized with today. The government has committed to providing it with access to all of the material and personnel under its control to assist in that study. The committee will be free to produce a report to Parliament wherein they can draw conclusions from the material they have reviewed to shine the light of transparency on the matter to either reassure Canadians about what has happened or raise further concerns and suggest reasonable paths forward to address those concerns.

I will conclude by saying that I believe it is good that parliamentarians are engaged in that study at NSICOP, and the public can be assured they are doing so responsibly. In that setting, witnesses are not being put in the difficult position of having to choose between the oaths they have sworn to protect Canada's secrets and the privileges of parliamentarians asking the questions, as happens at this committee.

As for me today, I will do my best to answer the questions put to me with full consideration of the public forum that we are in. I will not violate the oaths I have taken to protect our nation's secrets. I will also make an effort not to participate in the perpetuation of unsubstantiated allegations that are damaging the lives and reputations of individuals who are not represented here to defend themselves.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you.

With that, we will start our six-minute rounds with Mr. Cooper, followed by Mrs. Romanado, Madame Gaudreau and then Mrs. Blaney.

I will remind all participants that comments should be addressed through the chair. One person should be speaking at a time for ease of interpretation.

Mr. Cooper, the floor is yours.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses.

I'm going to be directing my questions, through you, to Mr. Broadhurst.

Mr. Broadhurst, Global News reported that 48 hours before the candidate nomination cut-off in the 2019 election, senior Liberal Party officials received an urgent briefing by CSIS that the Liberal candidate for Don Valley North was part of a foreign interference network.

Who were the senior Liberal Party officials who were part of this briefing?

[Jeremy Broadhurst]

Madam Chair, I am not in a position where I can discuss the contents of briefings that were provided to the Liberal Party. As the national security and intelligence adviser has provided information to this committee, we can confirm that a briefing did take place during that campaign. There were individuals at the party who had been sworn in as part of the protocol that our government had put in place to be able to share the sensitive information with the parties during the campaign.

In 2019, those individuals were Azam Ishmael, Braeden Caley and Mathieu Lafrance.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Thank you for that.

For the record, it should be noted that briefing took place on September 28, 2019, which also happened to be 48 hours before the nomination cut-off for the 2019 election.

Madam Chair, through you to Mr. Broadhurst, what is the name of the Liberal Party staffer responsible for overseeing 25 GTA ridings in the 2019 election?

[Jeremy Broadhurst]

Madam Chair, can I just receive clarification that this is related to the public reporting about such a staffer in the media?

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

It is.

[Jeremy Broadhurst]

If I may, Madam Chair, it is a somewhat difficult question to answer on account of the description of the job does not match the system that we had set up during that campaign.

Taking a generous view of it, we had a network of field workers during the campaign who supported local ridings. None of them were in charge of ridings. Local ridings are in charge of their own affairs. They were there to provide support in that end. To go one step further, none of those field workers at any time had any access to any information contained in any privileged briefings. That was solely the three people I mentioned.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Through you, Madam Chair, would the witness undertake to provide the names of those organizers in the GTA, the 25 GTA ridings which would be the ridings within the city of Toronto?