Procedure and House Affairs Committee on April 27th, 2023

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you.

Ms. Gaudreau, the floor is yours.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

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Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

I still do not fully understand the new powers that were just mentioned. I gather there's a coordinator and a protocol, but I would like to know more.

I will let the minister answer.

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

That is an excellent question.

As I explained earlier, the 2023 budget allocates funds to create a national counter-foreign interference office. The goal is to bring together all of the resources used to combat foreign interference in an efficient and effective way, in terms of powers and authorities.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

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Those of us on the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs have been concerned about this situation for six months now. We want to preserve people's trust in the integrity of our elections.

With that in mind, when will this new office be set up, and how will it work?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

That is another good question.

Work has already begun. People are in the process of setting up the office using the federal funds earmarked for that purpose in the 2023 budget. I hope we will be able to move on to the next steps to finish setting up the office.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

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For the sake of the public, can you tell us when we will have a detailed action plan and when the office will be operational?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

It will be as soon as possible.

However, I would like to reassure the honourable member that an array of other measures are already in place. Even with the tools—

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

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The weeks are flying by. This is urgent. We have heard a great deal about it: We are told the thresholds need to be checked and the legislative agenda has to have enough teeth because there are clearly many shortcomings.

In the next couple of weeks, can the committee expect to receive the action plan and the timeline for the full implementation of the office, even though you are still in the process of setting it up?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

My team and I have always worked with the committee. That said, the sooner the 2023 budget is passed, the sooner the office will be up and running.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

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If I understand correctly, we will have the details shortly after the budget is passed—say, a week later.

The committee is very concerned, as you know. This is your responsibility, and you have had six months to prepare and to be able to answer this fundamental question.

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

I want to reassure the honourable member that we will closely monitor the implementation of this tool.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

That's excellent.

I have one last question, and then I will give the rest of my time to my colleague, if she wants to continue the discussion.

At the Special Committee on the Canada–People’s Republic of China Relationship, you spoke of concerns about stigmatization. What tool do you plan to put in place to protect those affected? You are the Minister of Public Safety, and it is your responsibility. How exactly will you address those concerns?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

In the context of foreign interference, in particular, we have already created a safe and inclusive space for Canadians who want to participate in consultations. I, myself, have already spoken with community leaders. Beyond my portfolio, there is a strategy to combat racism. With these two initiatives, I hope we can create a constructive, inclusive and truly safe space to do this work.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Madam Chair, I would like to ask the minister to state in the report what tools will be used to protect our communities, when the action plan is unveiled after the budget is passed.

Thank you.

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

Thank you.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Minister, beyond budgetary considerations, there are issues that are purely legislative. I am thinking, for example, of a foreign agent registry. This issue has been on the table for two years, if not longer.

Why hasn't it been created yet? That measure has nothing to do with the budget.

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

That's a good question.

We have already begun consultations on the matter. In the coming weeks, I will be sending an update to this committee and to all parliamentarians on everything we have heard during the consultations regarding the creation of that new tool.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

I will repeat my question. We have been talking about this for at least two years. We've known for a long time that foreign agents have been influencing Canadians and members of the Chinese diaspora. We asked for such a tool over two years ago. Why don't we have one yet?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

I know this is an urgent matter, but it is important to create the right tool, one that will help to combat stereotypes and stigmatization.

When the time is right, we will update everyone.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you.

Go ahead, Mrs. Blaney.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

I thank the witnesses for being here.

It's good to see you, Minister Mendicino.

I have a few questions. I found it interesting, listening to your statement today. You talked about how robust the system is, yet a lot of the testimony that we've heard has told us that it is not robust, that part of the challenge, of course, is legislative, and that we need stronger, firmer legislation. That's something I'm very interested in, but I'm also interested in hearing a bit more about the goals moving forward around the foreign agent registry.

I have concerns. I've heard from many people who are concerned about being targeted, and how ethnic communities could suffer as a consequence of any false accusations.

My questions for you are on the foreign agent registry. What is the framework that you're looking at? How are you addressing key things, like what this means for citizens of Canada? Will citizens of Canada be put on this registry? If so, how will you deal with charter rights? If it is just non-citizens, what does that mean?

We know that Canadians have various statuses in Canada, so I'm curious about those different statuses and thinking of permanent residents.

How will you decide? Will it be people from particular countries that have been identified as participating in foreign interference or targeting Canada?

Canadians want to understand what the structure will be and what those components will look like. I think Canadians need to know if they could potentially be on this registry, and what that would mean for them as well.

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

Through you, Madam Chair, to Ms. Blaney, first, I completely share the concerns you articulated about how we create this new registry. In my conversations and interactions, many have expressed the worries and the fears that there could be, either inadvertent or advertent, a stigmatization as the result of it. That is why we are engaging in these consultations, to use that advice to inform the creation of the tool.

The last thing I'll say in response directly to your question, Ms. Blaney, is that you have identified a number of specific elements that will form the parameters of this registry: Are we looking at principles? Are we talking about citizens, about foreign nationals? Are we talking about both? Are we talking about countries? Are talking about a country-agnostic approach? Finally, do we put more of an emphasis on the types of activities so that we can promote transparency around legitimate diplomatic engagement here in Canada, versus the kind of activity that goes beyond legitimate and lawful activity and instead spills over into clandestine, deceptive activity that is counter to Canadian interests both here and abroad?

You put your finger on some of the very crunchy questions that we have to answer as we create this tool, but my commitment to you is that at the end of day, it will be one that is consistent with the values of the charter.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you for that.

I think that has to be watched very carefully. I hope that as you're going through the process, the consultation is inclusive and informative enough to the public that people know when to respond. It is really concerning to look at that and to know there are many people from many countries who have been here, in some cases for generations, who are already feeling concerned that they may be specifically targeted.

We know that disinformation is one of the biggest challenges and that information is flowing out that is not based on fact. It's concerning to Canadians, and it's scaring them sometimes.

I know that Australia has its Australian National Security, where people can look up on a website what the national threat level is every day. They can report any suspicious behaviour they see, and there are the day-to-day security concerns that can be updated. People can look on that website to see if there's been misinformation come out into their country, into their community, and see what was done about it, and then they know, oh, that was absolutely misinformation.

I'm just wondering whether there are any discussions happening around exploring that opportunity.

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

Madam Chair, again through you to Ms. Blaney, I think it's an important suggestion and worth studying very carefully.

I would also highlight that Canada has shown some important leadership on the international stage. We created the rapid response mechanism in conjunction with our G7 allies. That's incredibly important when we're talking about international events of consequence, for example, Russia's illegal invasion into Ukraine. Mr. Putin has been making scandalous claims. For example, he claims to be de-nazifying Ukraine. We need to push back aggressively against that kind of disinformation.

I would also point out that it strikes very close to home as well. Throughout the course of the pandemic, 90% of Canadians who did any research on vaccinations were at some point exposed to disinformation.

As we do this work, it is important that we think about it not only internationally, but as well here on Canadian soil.

The last thing I'll say is that in my own engagement as Minister of Public Safety, and with my deputy minister, last fall, when we were in Germany for the G7, I specifically engaged our G7 counterparts on the question of disinformation. I'm pleased to report to this committee that next week, we'll be taking the next steps towards having that conversation on how we can combat this threat too.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you.

We're going to go into our second round.

I'm just going to note for our official record that the last three exchanges probably were the best, in the sense of getting the maximum out, because there were not people speaking over each other. I would like for us to continue this in the second round.

For the second round, we will have Monsieur Berthold, followed by Mr. Gerretsen, then Madame Normandin and then Ms. Blaney.

I am hoping to squeeze in a full round, so then we'll go with two more if we can keep it tight, but I'm not going to name who would be next, because if I have to continue interrupting, we will not have the time for that.

Monsieur Berthold.