Evidence of meeting #72 for Procedure and House Affairs in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was campaign.
A video is available from Parliament.
12:35 p.m.
NDP
Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
You would agree, of course, that foreign interference can happen outside of elections. Can we find that common ground?
12:35 p.m.
As an Individual
We've seen it, based on the reports we've seen, from the Liberal Party in terms of nominations across the board.
12:35 p.m.
NDP
Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
I think there were also some allegations on the Conservative side as well, provincially as well—Mr. Brown, Mr. Ford, Mr. Charest. Lots of that stuff seems to float around during leadership time.
You mentioned that during your time, you had never been briefed on matters from CSIS as a senior adviser in the Harper government. Was it something you ever considered, though? Even if you weren't briefed, was there ever a time when this topic came up and you felt it necessary in either a partisan role as a national campaign director operative or a PMO role?
12:35 p.m.
As an Individual
No, I never said I wasn't briefed by CSIS. I said I was never briefed by CSIS on foreign interference or any matter regarding that.
12:35 p.m.
As an Individual
No, it never came to mind, because I never had any thought that there were foreign actors participating in the election process, except that there were press reports leading up to the 2015—
12:35 p.m.
NDP
Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
I'm new to the Hill. I've been around less time than you, but I find that odd. I find it highly suspicious that somebody with that kind of security clearance would never consider foreign interference, given that you would be briefed, that we have two committees on it and that you have what I would consider to be high-level security clearance.
At no time did the topic ever come up, given the role you played in these governments.
12:35 p.m.
As an Individual
It leads into the first time that I considered that foreign interference could be a problem. It was what I said in terms of the Tides Foundation funding Leadnow, which was—
12:40 p.m.
NDP
Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
In all your time, I find that, quite frankly.... I'm not saying this to be personal. I'll say this to the chair. I find it highly suspicious. I'll use the framework of my friend Mr. Cooper: Either you knew and did nothing or you didn't know and you're incompetent. I'm not saying you're incompetent, because I consider you to be a highly intelligent person. I'm using the words of Mr. Cooper, whom I've heard use that phrase with many of my Liberal counterparts. Which one is it?
12:40 p.m.
As an Individual
Well, Mr. Green, prior to, of course, the Tides's funding campaigns that helped both you and your coalition partners in the 2015 election, please tell me when there were any reports of foreign interference in a Canadian election?
12:40 p.m.
NDP
Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
—leading up to your arrival here. It's a level of hubris that's normally reserved for the Liberals, but I will leave you to it.
12:40 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Bardish Chagger
I know, Ms. Byrne, you are well aware that committee members get to ask questions and make comments. You have agreed to appear, and I do appreciate that you were going to take time last week and that you're coming back again, so thank you.
I will go into the second round, with Mr. Nater, followed by Ms. Sahota.
Mr. Nater, you have five minutes.
12:40 p.m.
Conservative
John Nater Conservative Perth—Wellington, ON
Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you to our witness.
I will be splitting some of my time with Mr. Steinley.
You mentioned in your opening comments, Ms. Byrne, that the Liberals seem to be angrier at whistle-blowers and the media than they are about the actual issue at hand. Why do you think that is?
12:40 p.m.
As an Individual
I don't know why it is. I think this is an issue that they obviously don't want to talk about. There's reason they haven't called a public inquiry, which would have been a very easy thing to do. There's a reason they drag their feet and filibustered this committee so that Katie Telford, the Prime Minister's chief of staff, wasn't able to attend. There's the fact that they lash out at media that ask them questions and claim that CSIS is wrong, only to, of course, backtrack.
Of course, on the briefing note that said MP Chong's family was targeted in Hong Kong, the original answer by the Prime Minister—and he was very hostile about it—was that it never made it out of CSIS. Well, now we find out that it actually made it out of CSIS and one of three national security advisers would have received it and not actually read the brief.
I'm not sure why. I guess they are hostile because there's obviously something they are hiding.
12:40 p.m.
Conservative
John Nater Conservative Perth—Wellington, ON
Following up on the allegations of Mr. Chong being threatened and his family being threatened, there is an indication that there could be multiple MPs. Given the fact that this was the result of a Uyghur motion—I would note that the Liberal cabinet abstained on that Uyghur motion—how concerning is it, as someone who's worked 20 years in the political apparatus, that members of Parliament are being threatened by foreign operatives on something as fundamental as human rights around the world?
12:40 p.m.
As an Individual
I think it's extremely concerning. Mr. Chong has been a long-time defender of human rights abroad. It was his motion on the treatment of Uyghurs within China by the Beijing administration that caused his family in Hong Kong to be targeted.
To your point, Mr. Nater, this was a motion that the Liberal cabinet abstained from, as well as some backbench MPs and a couple of backbench NDP MPs. I think it's extremely concerning. It casts a chill, and it should cast a chill for every member of Parliament regardless of what political stripe they are. If a government allows this to happen, it makes every single one of you a target of foreign interference based on the votes you have and based on your right to vote and speak in the House of Commons and put forward motions.
12:40 p.m.
Conservative
John Nater Conservative Perth—Wellington, ON
I have a final question before I pass it to Mr. Steinley.
We saw last weekend at the Liberal convention that a failed U.S. political operative was one of the keynote speakers. We saw a former Liberal leader make a joke about foreign election interference.
Do you think it's appropriate to be making jokes about, and making light of, something as serious as foreign election interference?
12:40 p.m.
As an Individual
No, I think it absolutely is not, and I think it speaks to the heart of where the Liberal Party is right now. They do not take this issue seriously. They do not like the fact that the opposition and the media refuse to let up until they get answers.
12:40 p.m.
Conservative
Warren Steinley Conservative Regina—Lewvan, SK
Thank you very much.
Thank you for being here, Ms. Byrne.
I have a question for you. Leadnow's interference in the 2015 campaign strikes me hard, because we lost Regina—Lewvan by 132 votes in that election. The Liberals knew of this interference, with over $1 million pumped into the election in 2015. Why do you think they didn't investigate that foreign election interference?
12:45 p.m.
As an Individual
Well, maybe it was because it benefited them. I think that's a question you should ask them.
12:45 p.m.
Conservative
Warren Steinley Conservative Regina—Lewvan, SK
Piggybacking on that, since we haven't seen them investigate it, would you agree—and you said it here today—that there should be a public inquiry and that it should go back even farther than the 2019 campaign? Do you think the Liberals would agree to having that public inquiry date back to 2015?
12:45 p.m.
As an Individual
I think if there is a public inquiry and if officials feel there was foreign interference—and I have no idea if there was prior to the 2015 campaign, based on the media reports that I've seen.... I believe that is something they should have already called.
12:45 p.m.
Conservative
Warren Steinley Conservative Regina—Lewvan, SK
This is my last question. If there is not a public inquiry, is that a condemnation of the Liberals not taking this seriously?