Evidence of meeting #83 for Procedure and House Affairs in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was information.
A video is available from Parliament.
8:15 p.m.
Conservative
Luc Berthold Conservative Mégantic—L'Érable, QC
You therefore have a budget of $648 million to gather intelligence and have agents on the ground preparing reports. That information is then shared with people who use it as a basis for making decisions.
Is that correct?
8:15 p.m.
Director, Canadian Security Intelligence Service
Intelligence work includes those elements, but many more factors are obviously included in the spending amount the member mentioned.
8:15 p.m.
Conservative
Luc Berthold Conservative Mégantic—L'Érable, QC
But that's the main focus of the service's work.
Isn't it?
8:15 p.m.
Director, Canadian Security Intelligence Service
Our work comprises the collection, analysis and transmission of intelligence.
8:15 p.m.
Conservative
Luc Berthold Conservative Mégantic—L'Érable, QC
I was surprised to learn during the discussions that the information that comes from CSIS falls into black holes. The government spends $650 million a year without establishing a clear and direct process for using all the information that's gathered. We heard that from the deputy minister of Global Affairs Canada and the present national security adviser.
As the director of an intelligence agency that costs taxpayers $648 million a year, how do you feel, after all your efforts and after gathering intelligence from your agents in the field, about the fact that all that information falls down black holes? Doesn't that seem somewhat unacceptable to you?
8:15 p.m.
Director, Canadian Security Intelligence Service
I can say that one of the most gratifying things for us is knowing that the work done by everyone at CSIS and all those in the intelligence community helps protect Canadians. That's very important for us. We are passionate about that, and our employees are very devoted.
Certainly, having a system that wrings the most out of every scrap of information absolutely deserves special attention. Right now, I think we're taking the opportunity to ensure that resources and efforts are channeled toward ensuring that we protect Canadians in a world where threats against Canadian interests are unfortunately increasing.
8:15 p.m.
Conservative
Luc Berthold Conservative Mégantic—L'Érable, QC
Right now—and we've seen this in some of the other testimony—the government and Minister Blair seems to want to make CSIS responsible for the fact that this information wasn't shared with the right people at the right time.
You've answered many questions about Minister Blair, but he has definitely attributed responsibility to you for the decision not to send him the information. How do you explain that?
I'm not talking about the fact that he wasn't made aware of it. You're not denying that. And yet Minister Blair nevertheless said that I should ask the director of CSIS why that information concerning Michael Chong wasn't shared with him.
Don't you think that comment is a bit much?
8:15 p.m.
Director, Canadian Security Intelligence Service
I think I had the opportunity to answer the questions. Yes, we shared the information, but it didn't make it to the minister. That failing should definitely be corrected in short order.
8:15 p.m.
Conservative
Luc Berthold Conservative Mégantic—L'Érable, QC
This is my last intervention this evening, and I'd like to ask you a final question.
Regarding this black hole, what message would you like to send to the deputy ministers to whom you send these internal management notes?
We won't be solving anything this evening. There won't be any new legislative changes. However, do you have a message to send to all those people this evening so they clearly understand that an internal management note is the first thing they should read every morning when they get to their offices? If they see one on their desks, it's because it's important.
8:15 p.m.
Director, Canadian Security Intelligence Service
I think that the message for all of us, including CSIS, is that we have to improve our processes. Clearly, they haven't always been effective.
My message would also be that the world has changed. The threat to Canada and its population has changed. We, all of us, have to do better. That's really the message I'd like to send.
I have to say that I've been reassured by the fact that people took note of that analysis. Everyone is aware of the fact that we all have to work better together to protect Canadians.
8:15 p.m.
Conservative
Luc Berthold Conservative Mégantic—L'Érable, QC
However, you didn't have to take the rap for the incompetence of certain deputy ministers.
8:20 p.m.
Director, Canadian Security Intelligence Service
I don't have a response to that comment, Madam Chair.
Thank you.
8:20 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Bardish Chagger
Thank you very much.
Mr. Vigneault, you've been very cooperative. You responded very quickly to our request that you appear here. We are going to take up a little more of your time this evening so everyone can ask you questions. So I'd like to thank you, you and Ms. Henderson, for your cooperation.
Mr. Turnbull, you have the floor for five minutes.
8:20 p.m.
Liberal
Ryan Turnbull Liberal Whitby, ON
Thanks, Madam Chair.
In Mr. Johnston's report, he identifies shortcomings that I think have been long-standing in terms of the flow of information, and he identifies communication gaps. When Ms. Thomas was here, she talked about how CSIS actually collects and sits on a lot of intelligence for a period of time.
One of the things I've been wondering is how long it takes to build a profile or a dossier of information, on average, before you actually share it. How long do you sit on intelligence before you share it?
8:20 p.m.
Assistant Director, Requirements, Canadian Security Intelligence Service
It really depends on the investigation we're engaged in.
As I indicated earlier, when we start an investigation, our threshold is that we suspect...because of information we have started to collect. Depending on that piece of information—and each piece of information, as I noted, is assessed on its own merit—we look at it and how it fits into the greater picture.
It really depends on each piece of information. Sometimes we could get something we would want to share right away, but sometimes it will take a bit longer because it hasn't hit the threshold of being validated. Really, it impacts our credibility. If we just sent everything out immediately without having a proper look at it and an assessment of it, it could really impact the credibility of our organization and the ongoing information we share.
It really depends on what we're collecting, how the investigation is moving forward and the quality of the sources that we are working with.
8:20 p.m.
Liberal
Ryan Turnbull Liberal Whitby, ON
There is sort of a threshold where you suspect something that then gives you licence to investigate and gather additional intelligence. You're piecing together a picture, and then there's another threshold you reach where you say, okay, now it's time to actually share this up the chain with other parties, i.e., ministers' offices and so on. Is that right? What is that threshold?
8:20 p.m.
Assistant Director, Requirements, Canadian Security Intelligence Service
Yes, that's right, and as I indicated, it really depends on the seriousness of the actual threat we're looking at and the amount of information we have to support our assessment of the seriousness of the threat.
One thing I would also add is that when we're doing an investigation, we begin with the building block pieces on the suspect, but sometimes we get to a point at which we recognize that the threat is serious enough that we actually need to go to a federal court and get a federal court warrant in order to be able to investigate the threat that much more.
As we're going through the process in each investigation, it depends where we are in the investigation at what point we start sharing that information.
When we're talking specifically about foreign interference, that is something we have been building a picture of for a very long time, as an organization. That's why we have been trying to push out a lot more information. We have also been speaking a lot more publicly about this, because of the fact that it is a very serious threat that we're facing in our country.
8:20 p.m.
Liberal
Ryan Turnbull Liberal Whitby, ON
Thank you.
What mandate and accountability does CSIS have for briefing deputy ministers and/or ministers?
I assume that within the CSIS Act you may have very specific accountabilities and a mandate that says that when you hit a certain threshold, you have to communicate that. Maybe there is a protocol for communicating. I am assuming so, but maybe you can clarify.
8:20 p.m.
Assistant Director, Requirements, Canadian Security Intelligence Service
That's a very interesting question.
8:20 p.m.
Director, Canadian Security Intelligence Service
I mentioned earlier that there are two different ways we share that information. One will be with intelligence reports, raw intelligence and assessed intelligence.
Also, at the deputy minister level, I sit at a number of different deputy minister committees where some of that information is shared directly. References are made to specific reports, to tell people, “You should take a look at this information. It's of relevance.”
The national security intelligence adviser said that with some of those gaps that have been identified recently, she has put in place a new process where we are meeting weekly to discuss specific reports that have been flagged, to make sure that the level of awareness is there and that actions can be taken very quickly, directly.
It is not just a single way of sharing. It's also not defined in the CSIS Act, to answer the question of the member. It is based more on professional expertise.
8:25 p.m.
Liberal
Ryan Turnbull Liberal Whitby, ON
Based on what you said, it seems to me that the sources of CSIS leaks that we've experienced over the last few months are particularly problematic if they're coming out and haven't been corroborated and verified or gone through the process that you just described.
Would you say that is the problem with how things have been spun in the media? It seems to me that they've been taken out of context.
8:25 p.m.
Director, Canadian Security Intelligence Service
I'll make a couple of points.
The first one is that intelligence professionals and the people of CSIS take their work extremely seriously. Those leaks have been damaging to the morale and reputation of the organization. Investigations are ongoing. I really hope that soon there will be information that will be public. An individual or individuals may or may not be from CSIS. It's clear that there was information from CSIS and also from the Privy Council Office.
I believe it is important to have a specialist to be able to help people to understand and contextualize the intelligence and to put it in the right context.
8:25 p.m.
Bloc
Marie-Hélène Gaudreau Bloc Laurentides—Labelle, QC
Thank you very much, Madam Chair.
I've gotten answers to many of my questions, and I only have two left. I can see that we have a lot of work to do.
Many countries have two intelligence agencies. Earlier I mentioned France's Direction générale de la sécurité intérieure and its Direction générale de la sécurité extérieure.
The United States has its Federal Bureau of Investigation, the FBI, and their Central Intelligence Agency, the CIA, which are well known.
The United Kingdom has its MI5 and MI6, sections 5 and 6 of Military Intelligence.
Has Canada reached the same point? Does it need domestic and international intelligence services.