Human Resources Committee on Nov. 8th, 2006

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

We would like to welcome everybody here, pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), our study on employability in Canada. I would like to take this time to thank all the witnesses for taking time out of their busy schedules to be here today to talk to us about what we believe is a very crucial issue, not only now but affecting us in the future.

I have a couple of housekeeping items, and I always leave something out, so I'm sure all my colleagues will remind me as we go through.

The way it will work today is you will get seven minutes each, and I would like to keep you right to seven minutes because we have a number of witnesses. If you don't get to all of your recommendations, my suggestion is that we'll try to pick that up in the questions. Then we'll have seven minutes of questions and answers of all the members, followed by a round of five minutes.

To the MPs, you have some research documents. I just want to make sure the clerk gets them back, and then we can redistribute them to you at the next meeting. That's the original report on the study of employability in Canada. So if we could get that back, that would be great.

The third thing is, for those of you who presented briefs a little bit late, they cannot be distributed to the full committee until after they've been translated. We will make sure they get translated. You may reference them today, but if they're late coming in, as far as the submission goes, you can rest assured that the committee will get them at some point, after they've been translated.

I'm going to start with Mr. Kramer.

Thank you for being here, sir. You have seven minutes, please.

[Ken Kramer, Chair, Muscular Dystrophy Canada]

Honourable chair and members, thank you for your invitation this morning. My name is Ken Kramer. I am the chair of the national board of directors of Muscular Dystrophy Canada. I'm also a lawyer and president of the law firm KMK Law Corporation in downtown Vancouver.

Since 1954, Muscular Dystrophy Canada has been committed to improving the quality of life for the tens of thousands of Canadians living with neuromuscular disorders. Our organization provides funding for leading research for the discovery of therapies and cures for neuromuscular disorders. Beyond research, we also provide various services to Canadians with these disorders, including assisting in the purchase of wheelchairs.

I'm here today to make you aware of a lamentable situation with regard to the funding available for persons with disabilities and to offer solutions that I hope you will strongly consider. These are important ideas, as I believe firmly that they will encourage greater employment amongst this group.

There are currently major inconsistencies in the levels of services, funding, and accessibility offered between provinces when it comes to wheelchairs. The result of this lack of funding is that non-profit organizations such as MDC are obligated to use a significant portion of their limited funds to pay for people's wheelchairs, instead of allocating that money toward research that will find a cure for degenerative disorders.

While some provincial programs will cover all the costs associated with purchasing wheelchairs, others will only provide funding for children or for those who are on social assistance. While some provincial programs boast wait times of up to six to eight weeks, others take over six to eight months to provide this medically necessary equipment. Some provincial programs offer readily accessible information about their program requirements and processes, while others don't even have an official wheelchair program in place, making the necessary information very difficult to find.

Wheelchairs are a fundamental need for those who require them. Those with such needs should not have to deplete their savings before receiving funding from the government. If the government is willing to provide funding for someone to obtain a hip replacement so that he or she is able to walk, then it should also pay for a person's wheelchair if that is what he or she needs to get around. Both situations, as I will discuss later, encourage independence.

To that end, MDC, along with five other like-minded organizations, have recently launched a national wheelchair strategy, wherein we ask that the government implement the following three important pillars: one, national standards to ensure that the levels of service and funding provided to those in need of wheelchairs are consistent across provinces; two, federal transfer payments to enable all provinces to provide full funding for their residents' wheelchair needs; and three, the creation of a one-stop information venue, whereby information about the various provincial program requirements, processes, and contacts would be available through a national phone service and website.

But how does this affect employability issues in Canada? I believe there are two ways of looking at this: how this fits within governments' existing support networks and how not doing so discourages employment. In the first case, it is important to look at how government currently helps people work. Be it literacy, job skills, or health care, the efforts of government are designed to create as level a playing field as possible for all to compete. The system at present, where costs of a wheelchair are often downloaded to the individual, makes it difficult for the disabled to afford mobility.

Beyond this fix within the mandate of the government, it is important to look at how the status quo can actually make working unaffordable. Governments' job should also be to make sure there is always an incentive for all to work. Fewer people on social assistance means more revenues and fewer expenses for government, ignoring the dignity and financial independence. But while it may seem counterintuitive, some Canadians with disabilities will find it more affordable to rely on social assistance than to work, since being employed would mean that they would have to deplete their entire savings to obtain a wheelchair, a purchase that costs as much as or more than a new car. Clearly this doesn't make sense.

For example, the chair that you see me in now costs approximately $25,000. Because I can be independent through the use of this highly sophisticated electric wheelchair, I am able to run my law firm in downtown Vancouver and employ three individuals. Without this chair, this simply would not be possible. Now, I am very fortunate to have this equipment, but not all persons with disabilities are so fortunate. Imagine how many extra people might be employed or be employers if access to mobility devices was not an issue.

If implemented, we strongly believe our recommended measures will have a direct impact on the job prospects for Canadians with disabilities. Beyond this, such a program would make Canada an example to other countries in terms of the importance and benefits of investing in its citizens. The time has come for wheelchairs to be a core part of our national health care strategy and, by extension, how Canada promotes employment among its citizens. We call on you, esteemed members of the committee, to help make the national wheelchair strategy a reality. Every Canadian deserves to live with dignity and independence, and deserves to have the opportunity to contribute to his or her community. Without a prescribed mobility device, many Canadians cannot participate in making Canada's economy stronger and more productive.

Thank you for your attention. I invite you to review the national wheelchair strategy backgrounder, which I have provided to the committee in French and English. This document will illustrate some of the discrepancies that are in existence in regard to services, funding, and accessibility between provinces when it comes to wheelchairs.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you, Mr. Kramer, and thank you for keeping that right on time as well. You're a good example for the rest of our witnesses who will come after you. And it's good seeing you again. I know we saw you in Ottawa—

[Ken Kramer]

It's good to see you too.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

—but this time it was our turn to come out to see you.

Ms. Blank, you have seven minutes, please. Thank you.

[Bonnie Blank, President, Canadian Dental Hygienists Association]

Thank you for affording us the opportunity to speak to you today. Dental hygienists are primary oral health care providers, focusing on oral disease prevention and oral health promotion. Oral health has a profound impact on the overall health of Canadians. Periodontal disease, historically considered a localized infection, is now considered a potential risk factor for a number of serious health problems such as cardiovascular and respiratory diseases, diabetes, and low birth weight babies.

The links between oral health and general health underscore the need for a health system that integrates the mouth with the rest of the body. Two human resource system changes can support this integration. Number one, dental hygienists must be able to work with other general health professionals and to work unsupervised to increase access to care. Adequate access must be provided to post-secondary and continuing education.

What does the federal government need to do to support the oral health human resources system? First, it must remove barriers to accessing dental hygiene preventive services. What is the largest roadblock? Dental hygienists are not paid directly for their services. In many provinces and territories, in order for dental hygienists to be paid for their services, they must work for a dentist. This creates a monopoly on oral health services that does not benefit the public in the end. The public service dental care plan and the Veterans Affairs Canada--VAC--dental services program perpetuate and support the monopoly by not paying dental hygienists for their services. Several international reports and letters call for payments directly to dental hygienists in private businesses. The spinoff from the direct payment will be increased competition and increased access to oral health services. A letter from the Canadian Competition Bureau overwhelmingly supports the ability of dental hygienists to initiate practice with no restrictions from dentists.

Recently, the U.S. Department of Justice and Federal Trade Commission published a report on competition in health services that documents how dentists' control over dental hygienists reduces competition in oral health services. In addition, the OECD recently published a report on competition that highlights the negative impact of dentists' attempts to prevent independent dental hygiene practices. The competition authority in Ireland also criticized the dentists' efforts to forestall independent dental hygiene practices.

Two government dental plans--the pensioners' dental services plan of the federal public service and the Ontario children in need of treatment, CINOT, dental program in Ontario--pay dental hygienists directly for their services. The federal government must follow the lead of these progressive programs. This will allow competition to flourish and improve access to oral health services.

Second, the federal government needs to strengthen human capital. Strengthening human capital through continuing education is of paramount importance to the dental hygiene profession, and it is a requirement for licensure in most provinces. Continuing education ensures health professionals keep abreast of constantly changing research, education, and technology. It ensures quality standards, programs, and services--quality that so many Canadians have come to depend on--and ensures excellence within the profession, accountability to the public, and increased productivity.

The federal government can encourage health professionals to participate in continuing education through income tax incentives. We call on the federal government to expand several definitions in the Income Tax Act to enable health professionals to obtain deductions for a broader range of continuing education activities, including conferences and online courses. The definitions in the Income Tax Act that require revision include the following: designated educational institution, certified educational institution, and qualifying education program. Definition revisions should allow individuals to claim expenses related to continuing education events. Income tax deductions for an expanded number of continuing education activities would provide an additional incentive to Canadians to increase their knowledge and skills. It would result in investment in lifelong learning and it would increase productivity.

Human capital can also be strengthened by improving access to post-secondary education through improved student loans. Dental hygienists are educated during two- to four-year programs of study at a college or university. Many students are battling the high cost of this education, which can cost up to $40,000. The elimination of grant programs in most provinces puts a further strain on students.

In conclusion, you can make critical changes to government policies to improve oral heath human resources in Canada and the oral health of Canadians. Support the direct payment of dental hygienists, improve access to post-secondary education and continuing education through tax incentives, and improve financial assistance for post-secondary education.

Thank you. We will be pleased to answer any of your questions.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you, Ms. Blank.

We'll move to Mr. Holmes.

[Perley Holmes, Business Manager, International Association of Bridge, Structural, Ornamental and Reinforcing Iron Workers - Local 97]

Thank you.

I'm going to give you a brief introduction of what an ironworker is. We're part of the building trades. We're the people who place the rebar in concrete structures. We place the structural steel in your buildings and bridges. We're pretty well on every job that's not made out of wood.

[Geoff Regan, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

You like heights, right?

[Perley Holmes]

Well, yes, I have worked in high places.

But that's what the ironwork trade is.

With respect to that, I represent the local. We have about 1,800 members in this province, and there are about 15,000 of us in Canada. We have lots of issues, and they're in the newspapers, with mobility and skill shortages, and this is what I want to address.

I passed around a graph. I'm not sure if you have it, but it shows the apprentice completion numbers over a period of years. When you look at that, this is what happens when the government gets involved with apprenticeship. We ran our apprenticeship program up until there. Ever since 1986, the numbers pretty well tell the story. It was going pretty good when we were in charge of the apprenticeship program.

Anyway, I'm going to read a letter, as I'm going to run out of time. It's a letter I addressed to the last Minister of Human Resources, Belinda Stronach, in January. It pretty well sums up a lot of what I'm going to say, so I'll see if I can get through it in time.

To the Honourable Ms. Stronach:

I am writing to request your assistance in addressing an ongoing issue I feel is of grave concern, not only to members of my Union, but also to the public at large. The issue is the requested use of foreign workers to deal with an anticipated skilled trade shortage in British Columbia. I have previously written to your office regarding the skilled trade shortage issue and the impending “foreign worker” solution. This issue now requires your immediate attention.

In particular, I want to address the issue of workers who place reinforcing bar, or rebar, into concrete. The open-shop, non-union contractors in residential high-rise construction have been screaming for the past couple of years that Canada ought to open its borders to foreign rebar workers. They claim projects are in disarray, on hold, and others may be cancelled due to these contractors' inability to attract and retain rebar workers.

Yet, a recent study done by the Construction Sector Council entitled, Labour Requirements for 2005 to 2013, indicates a need for only approximately 300 additional ironworkers over the next three years in British Columbia, with another 100 or so required over the following 4 years, ending in 2013. It is our position, which I will sketch out in greater detail below, that we are more than capable of meeting this demand from within our own borders.

...it is interesting to note that the same group of contractors crying out for the right to bring in foreign workers to deal with an alleged skills shortage are the exact same contractors who have never bought into the need for full-fledged apprenticeships or formal training, and heaven forbid they would accept anything like a red-sealed tradesman. They are also largely responsible for the strong lobby group behind the provincial government's destruction of apprenticeship training in the province of British Columbia.

In contrast, Ironworkers Local 97 has a proud and enviable record of supporting apprenticeship training and our membership hold at least 98% of the Ironworker Red Seal certifications issued in this province. The first formal ironworker training curriculum and dedicated facility in North America was developed and initiated by Local 97 in 1956. This program was subsequently adopted by the International Association in Washington, DC, and is now used throughout North America. It is a proud legacy as my Local Union enters its 100th year in the business of building Canada.

A few years back it became alarmingly clear that we were not attracting enough apprentices into our trade. There are numerous reasons for this; namely a lack of work and diminishing wages due to the competitive bidding against the open-shop sector, a sector that never was a supporter of apprenticeship, and therefore unwilling to bear any of the cost burden associated with training apprentices. In addition, for a time we had the lowest wages in the rebar sector in Canada, the consequence of which was the inability to attract experienced Ironworkers from other parts of Canada to fill the void. Wages have now increased to the point that we currently have 30 rodmen...

—actually, we have a hundred rodmen from other provinces—

...almost all of who are from Quebec, working in British Columbia. We expect another 40 to arrive in the New Year.

It is interesting to note that the province of Quebec, since implementing the Decree and enacting significant labour law changes in the early 1970s, have developed the best training and apprenticeship programs in North America and quite possibly the world. As a result of this commitment to training, there is now an abundance of mobile, highly skilled tradesmen from Quebec available to travel to other parts of Canada, including British Columbia, when construction is slow in their home province.

Ironworkers are a mobile group of workers, and as a result of our fraternal brotherhood, we have the ability to tap into this valuable source of highly skilled Canadian tradesmen from Quebec. If the open-shop contractors signed an agreement with us, they too could gain access to this gold mine of opportunity. Instead they, in collusion with the provincial government, wish to bring in foreign workers rather than employing or training Canadians. I wish to note one of our contractors, Harris Rebar, is paying airfare and some subsistence allowance for these tradesmen, something the federal government has done in the past in parts of this country for unemployed Canadians.

Recognizing the dwindling apprentice to journeyman ratio a number of years ago (presently, 6% of our membership are apprentices)--

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

You have one minute left, Mr. Holmes.

[Perley Holmes]

Okay.

--I put together a proposal called the Ironworker Aboriginal Initiative. Subsequently, a meeting with former minister Jane Stewart led to a referral to the Construction Sector Council for consideration of my project outline. The CSC took on my project and obtained funding through HRSDC. At present, we are in the process of launching the pilot project for the ironworker Aboriginal Career Awareness Program in British Columbia, with the intent of taking the program national later this year. It is a wonderful marketing and recruiting program, geared to the segment of our population with the highest unemployment rate, that will easily be adapted for all the trades down the road.

I'll stop there, Again, I sent a package, and I apologize that it wasn't here. It addresses a lot of issues with regard to the skilled trade shortage.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you, Mr. Holmes. As I said before, we'll make sure that once it's translated it will be distributed, not just to the members here today but to all the members of the committee. We thank you very much for that submission.

Next we have Mr. Byrne.

[Pat Byrne, Business Manager, District Council 38, International Union of Painters and Allied Trades]

Thanks very much.

First of all, thanks to the committee for allowing me this time to speak, and thanks to the staff as well.

The issue I want to talk about is, to me, a very important one. It impacts heavily on the future of our economy and on our young people.

It's funny. I didn't realize that Perley was going to be here this morning, so some of the things I'm going to talk about will be quite similar to the issues that Perley touched on.

Perley is not the only guy who likes working on heights. I'm a glazier by trade, and that involves pretty much anything you see around the downtown core that has glass, aluminum, or mirror involved. That's us guys, and when you see the fellows hanging on the sides of buildings, I've been there myself.

Thirty years I've spent, actually, as a glazier. My old man was a glazier for thirty years before that, too, so it's quite a proud trade. I'm quite proud of my trade, and I come by it honestly, through my dad and also through my uncles.

Currently, I'm the assistant business manager with District Council 38. We represent more than 1,900 skilled workers in the construction industry in the province of British Columbia. Our industry represents a number of trades, including painting. We also represent all of the industrial and commercial painters in the province and residential painters.

As well as glazing, we also represent the wall and ceiling sector. We have drywall finishers, another apprenticeable trade.

We also represent workers who aren't recognized as TQ, but they work in hazardous materials removal and industrial cleaning.

Our membership is all over the province, but it's concentrated mainly in the lower mainland, Vancouver Island, and the Prince George area.

It will come as no surprise, I'm sure, to the members of the committee that the construction industry in British Columbia is booming right now. Low interest rates and high commodity prices have contributed to a boom in residential and commercial construction, and our members on the lower mainland, and in southern Vancouver Island in particular, are almost all working. I think we have maybe 5% unemployment at this time.

I'd like to speak to the committee today about three issues that you're examining: the skilled worker shortage, apprenticeship training, and the recognition of foreign credentials.

On the skilled worker shortage, it sometimes seems you can't pick up a newspaper without reading about a shortage of skilled workers in a number of sectors--teachers, nurses, and doctors. But lately, as preparations for the 2010 Olympics begin, there has been an increased degree of attention paid to the shortage of skilled tradespeople in the construction industry.

I both agree and disagree with that statement, that we have a shortage of skilled workers in the construction industry, and I would like to explain.

Here on the lower mainland and on southern Vancouver Island, yes, we have a shortage of skilled tradespeople in the construction industry, although the shortage varies from trade to trade. But in our experience, the same cannot be said for other regions of the province. In the Kootenays, for example, more than 50% of the unionized journeyperson electricians are unemployed. In the interior in the north, more than 40% of the electricians are unemployed. Province-wide, 30% of the unionized journeyperson boilermakers are unemployed, as well as 25% of journeyperson plumbers.

We believe the skill shortage can best be addressed over the long term by returning to a much more robust and aggressive trades and apprenticeship training program. While this is a provincial responsibility, I urge you to recommend that the federal government take a much more active leadership role in this issue.

We put our money where our mouth is when it comes to training. At District Council 38, we currently own a 26,000-square-foot training facility that we operate in partnership with our contractors. We've been strong proponents for additional resources for the trades and for apprenticeship training for many years, and our record is excellent.

Currently, every single painting apprentice in this province goes through our training facility out in Surrey. There is nowhere else in the province you can receive that training. We're expanding our school at the current time, and as early as March of next year we expect to be delivering, in partnership with BCIT, glazier training.

Currently in British Columbia there is only one facility where you can receive your glazier training, and that's BCIT. So if you're working outside of this area, you have to come to the lower mainland. We're also working in partnership with our Glazing Contractors Association to see if we can expand that training to the interior, at Thompson Rivers University, and also over to Camosun College on Vancouver Island.

Right now, if you're a drywall finisher in the province of British Columbia, you can't get your technical training here anymore. With the changes to ITAC, the Industry Training and Apprenticeship Commission, what happened with the change in the apprenticeship system here...BCIT cancelled the drywall finishing program. We're looking to resurrect that at the training facility we're building at our facility right now.

Collectively, we can do much more to address the skills shortage, but we require government to resume the leadership role it once served.

With respect to the issue of foreign credentials, we see this as an issue more relevant to professionals like doctors, nurses, and teachers. That said, it becomes an issue in the construction industry when some companies use the skills shortage as a pretext to apply for permission to use foreign workers.

The bottom line in the construction industry, we find, is that a request for foreign workers is all too often a request for cheaper workers. Recent examples include the Bilfinger Berger building of the new Golden Ears Bridge, something I'm sure Perley can fill you in on a heck of a lot more than I can. It's the bridge that's going across the Fraser River between Langley and Maple Ridge and Pitt Meadows. The company has applied for permission from the federal government to import 340 foreign workers, saying they can't find enough qualified workers in Canada. They say this despite the fact that the ironworkers union has hundreds of unemployed, qualified workers in eastern Canada. In fact, Perley was showing me some letters he has representing over 1,200 ironworkers in Canada who would be willing to come out and work on this particular project.

Again, we see this issue being framed, generally, about professionals, but when it's used as a pretext to bring in workers who are paid less than the Canadian workers they replace, we have to speak out.

At the end of the day, if a company truly does need to bring in workers from outside the country, if the need is genuine, the very least we can expect is that those workers will be paid not one penny less than a Canadian worker with the same skills. Let's keep Canadians employed and paying taxes and supporting their communities.

In conclusion, as I said at the beginning of the presentation, I primarily wanted to talk to you about a shortage of skilled workers, the need for an increased focus on apprenticeships, and the recognition of foreign credentials.

I have four recommendations.

Number one is that the federal tax credit for employers hiring apprentices be amended so that the credit is increased for each completed apprenticeship. Right now, there's no incentive for the employer to keep his or her apprentices moving through the system to completion, only to hire them. We believe a modest expansion of the tax credit would have a major positive impact on apprenticeship training completion.

We would like to see the federal government assume a leadership role with respect to trades and apprenticeship training. We recognize the work that has been done to date, but we believe that a reinvigoration of the red seal classification is crucial. We recommend that the government look at the work being done by the Government of Alberta and encourage the other provincial governments to adopt that provincial approach. The federal government should insist that companies seeking to import foreign workers be required to demonstrate that the skills needed are not possessed by available Canadian workers.

Also, we would like to see increased funding for the federal agency responsible for assuring that a genuine shortage of workers exists. We've had off-the-record conversations with individuals in this area who tell us that they're unable to adequately investigate the requests because of shortages in the department in funding and personnel.

So thank you again for your time this morning. Sorry I ran on a little bit there, but if I have any time, we'd be more than pleased to answer any questions you have. Thanks.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thanks, Mr. Byrne. Thank you very much for that.

We're going to move to our last presenters or witnesses, Mr. Chan and Ms. Mitchell, for seven minutes.

[Tung Chan, Chief Executive Officer, United Chinese Community Enrichment Services Society]

Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. My name is Tung Chan and I am the CEO for SUCCESS. I'd like to start by thanking you for giving me this opportunity to present to you.

SUCCESS has been a non-profit, not-for-profit organization since 1973. We have 12 offices in the lower mainland, we have 350 employees, and we have a total of 9,000 volunteers. Our budget is about $17 million a year, and I'd like to thank the government for providing roughly about 80% of that to us. The other 20% we fundraise through the community's support as well as from our own resource recovery programs.

We have always provided a holistic, integrated approach to helping new Canadians settle. What do I mean by that? It means that we help them find accommodation, we help them get jobs, and we help them learn about their new neighbourhood. We also help them learn new languages. We truly believe that when new Canadians arrive on our shores, we have to provide them not with a single approach but with a holistic and total approach.

We believe that when we look at the statistics in population growth—and I'm not going to bore you with statistics—the labour market is going to be reliant on new Canadians coming to our shores. I want to stress, along with my colleague here, that we're not looking for foreign workers; we're looking for new Canadians who are interested in moving here to adopt our country as their country.

Next, I want to look at the B.C. situation. If we look at the B.C. skilled workers' occupations, between 2000 and 2004, this province received up to 15,000 skilled immigrants. They possess skills, expertise, and technology in engineering, in finance, and in marketing. Typically, they are between the ages of 25 and 44 and have at least a bachelor's degree or several years of experience. As a country we are benefiting tremendously from those kinds of human resources.

When we talk about new Canadians coming here to settle, it has to be both ways. It's not only that new Canadians coming here need to adopt to this country, but we believe—with the 33 years of serving them that I have experienced—a host country also needs to move. It's a two-way street. They need to do that in an interactive way.

Let me talk about some of the challenges that are experienced by new Canadians coming here. The first one would be language, and when I mean language, it's not just learning English but more about learning the linguistics, learning the social language skills as well as skills in the workplace. It's important also that their foreign credentials need to be recognized. They also need to adapt to the local culture and to gain Canadian experience.

We have been connecting business with skilled workers. We have also been operating in the employment and economic development area. We believe it's a win-win situation.

There are a lot of service gaps, however, for new Canadians. There is insufficient support for workplace language training. There is not enough recognition of prior work experience and foreign credentials. We also need to have programs that bridge and connect employers to skilled immigrants. We also really need to address the skills sort of issues that have been spoken to by some of the panellists here. Also, we need to have pre-settlement services.

Let me talk a bit about how we can overcome those barriers. We believe we need to have a systematic approach in changing the accreditation. We need to have a reliance on prior learning assessments. That means that before the new Canadians come to this country we should have that in place. We have to have programs to fast-track the certification of new Canadians' qualifications in occupations subject to public regulation. We should also have standards. For example, in health care occupations, trades, engineering, IT, and accounting, we need to have new initiatives to facilitate assessment and recognition of foreign credentials.

I heard some questions earlier today, and if you ask me those again, I will offer you some other suggestions.

We need to have more investments in our new Canadians. To me, new Canadians are like newborn babies. We invest a lot of money in our new babies when they move here; we are not investing sufficiently in the new Canadians who have come to our shores.

We need to have integrated bridging programs, and we need to have more resources to provide people with language training, skills training, vocational training, and the kinds of apprenticeships I heard about here today. We fully support that kind of approach.

We also have to address regional skills shortages through pre-settlement services. What I mean by that is orientation at Canadian institutions before new Canadians arrive on our shores. We need to provide them with road maps on credential recognition. We need to provide them with training courses and bridging programs in our labour market, language professions, and trades. We need to provide them with assistance in acquiring Canadian credentials.

The bottom line is that we're looking for leadership, and we're looking for leadership from the federal government. If there is one message I want to leave with this panel, it's that if the federal government provides that leadership, I truly believe the rest of the country will follow. We need to have connections and we need to have cooperation in terms of governments, service providers, professionals, trade associations, trade unions, the business community, and new Canadian service organizations like ours. We need to have coordination. We need to have people like you and like those in different government departments coordinating efforts.

This is a country that relied on new Canadians to build it. This is a country that was built by immigrants. We have to move forward, in the 21st century, by working together as a group.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you, Mr. Chan.

We're going to start our first round of questioning. I think we're going to have time for two rounds today.

Mr. Regan, please commence. You have seven minutes.

[Geoff Regan, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I'm not sure where to start with so many questions to ask.

To Mr. Chan, first of all, it sounded like you were interested in having a chance to talk more about your suggestions in terms of foreign credentials recognition. Perhaps I can start with that.

[Tung Chan]

Thank you for the question, sir.

I alluded to the fact that leadership is important. What do I mean by that? If you look at how we deal with different issues, how we deal with health issues or aboriginal issues, I believe the new Canadian settlement issue is worth being put on the national agenda.

When our first ministers meet every year, they have agenda items to talk about. So why not put this issue on the first ministers table? Looking forward ten or twenty years, the Canadian labour pool is going to come from new Canadians coming to our shores. We have to get some solutions here. I know government moves slowly, so let's start now and move quickly.

There's another suggestion I'd like to make. If you look at health, for instance, and look at the BNA Act or our Constitution, health is not a jurisdiction of the federal government. Yet the federal government provides that leadership. We have the Canada Health Act, which lays out the framework. We also use funding to entice the provinces to come together at the table.

We need to set out a nationally recognized, consensus-building policy, and we need guideline principles to get the provinces to come to the table. We need to use funding there as well.

Health clearly is not a federal government area, and yet the federal government can still influence the provinces to provide a standard of care. I believe it's important that we do the same thing here.

[Geoff Regan, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

Thank you very much.

Let me turn to the other gentlemen, from the ironworker and painter and allied trade groups. It struck me, as I heard you guys talk, that on the one hand we have the tight-wire walker, and on the other hand we have Spiderman. And I say that in a very complimentary fashion. It's daring work, and you have to be courageous to do it. I think a lot of Canadians admire people who do that, because we have a history of building great bridges and buildings in our country. It's remarkable work.

Now, I'm from Nova Scotia, and I have the impression that a lot of people are going west. Workers of various kinds are going. Are you seeing people in your trade, for example, coming from the east, and if so, in what numbers? Although you talked about why some of them aren't, I have the impression that a lot of people generally are coming from the east. But are these groups not coming?

[Perley Holmes]

We call them travel cards. We have about 100 travel cards working right now out of this area. In 1981 and 1982 we had approximately the same membership, but we had over 6,000 ironworkers within a two- to three-year timeframe come from eastern Canada—well, from right across Canada.

[Geoff Regan, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

And only 100 now?

[Perley Holmes]

It's because there isn't the need. As well, in the early eighties there were a lot more camp jobs and there was a lot more overtime, so it was more lucrative. Right now, we're concentrating more on training.

At the time, we had double the apprenticeship classes; we were flush with—

[Geoff Regan, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

Are they needed in your trades in Alberta? There must be some of them.

[Perley Holmes]

Not the ironworkers.