Human Resources Committee on Feb. 8th, 2007

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you, Mr. Atkinson, Ms. Davies.

We're now going to move to the last round.

Mr. Lake, for five minutes, please.

[Mike Lake, Conservative, Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB]

A couple of key concepts just keep coming to mind as I'm listening to the conversation. One is balance, which we talked about a million times, and the other one is due diligence. Ms. Davies holds up the Canada Labour Code, part I of which was established through several years and much consultation. Now, however, we're talking about an ad hoc amendment to the Labour Code, a one-off with no real consultation. I don't know, but I think this is a fundamental problem with this approach.

Even the union leaders I'm talking to right now are talking about the situation right now being quite healthy. I'd like you maybe to comment on that first. In the current labour situation, is something seriously broken? What is the screaming reason for this legislation right now?

Let's start with Mr. Turnbull.

[David Turnbull]

As I've indicated, in our industry, to the best of my knowledge, in the last two decades we've had a one-day strike in one of our members. So clearly, within our organizations, there's no need for this. We have very good labour relations.

Our concern is strictly with the domino effect that can be caused, which can cause havoc throughout the whole of the Canadian economy and will significantly reduce the attractiveness of Canada as a place for inward investment.

[Mike Lake, Conservative, Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB]

Right, and I want to get Mr. Nicholls to comment on that, because actually when you talked about the domino effect before, I was thinking about Mr. Nicholls and their situation.

Your workers are union employees in the federal jurisdiction, the very people who the legislation is purporting to help.

I want you to envision a strike or lockout not in your own industry but instead in the air transport industry, which is very important to you, let's say, in the summer, when perhaps the ice roads aren't usable and you're so reliant on the transport industry. If a union in the air industry was able to use this legislation to completely shut down air service in your area, how would that affect your company, and in turn, and most importantly, the workers who work for you?

[Graham Nicholls]

Very simply, we'd have a great deal of difficulty getting to our site, with billions of dollars of investment and thousands of people working there, because the only way to get there, except for a few weeks of the year, is by air.

[Mike Lake, Conservative, Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB]

Also, aside from your business, I want to think about the people who live in your area and how that air transportation stoppage would affect their ability just to get the regular goods and services they need to live up there.

[Graham Nicholls]

Certainly a lot of those communities are accessible only by air. Once again, there are no roads to connect them. Our industry is dependent on those kinds of services.

Other types of mining operations that we might be looking at are also dependent on rail service. So there are many, many different linkages that we have with those kinds of services.

But the impact on other stakeholders, I think, is extremely important to our analysis of this legislation. It's not just an impact on our bottom line; it's also an impact on the communities we have obligations to. We care very much about the sustainability and the benefit of those communities, and we can see a lot of negative ripple effects on those communities as a result of work stoppages that would get much, much worse as a result of this legislation.

[Mike Lake, Conservative, Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB]

Right.

Now, Mr. Finn, I have a question for you. I'm thinking about the farmers in Ms. Yelich's or Mr. Merasty's riding. I think mining is pretty important in Mr. Merasty's riding as well.

I want you to talk about the smaller bargaining units within the rail industry and give an example of the type of work stoppage with smaller bargaining units that might be able to cause the rail industry some problems if they were to walk out and not be able to use management even.

[Sean Finn]

You talk about smaller bargaining units. This is a team sport. You don't operate the railway by separate unions. You think about the T and E, who are technical people—our signalmen, for example, and crossing signals and the whole signalling system on the railway. It's not a very big union compared to the overall unions. They're not transportation people. They're very much tied to the railway itself. But you cannot operate the railway without having signals, obviously, so that's very important.

[Mike Lake, Conservative, Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB]

That small group could actually shut down the rail industry, though, if no one else was allowed to work and they couldn't bring in replacement workers.

[Sean Finn]

Rail traffic controllers in downtown Edmonton who operate the network on a North American basis realize this. We have rail traffic controllers sitting in Edmonton who essentially dispatch trains across North America for CN. It's a very small union compared to other unions within the group, but that group can do so.

It's not a question of isolating the unions; it's making sure there's a balance between the negotiating parties. We treat all unions on the same basis. They're all as important, one as the other, to us when it comes to how we operate the railway. There's no one trade or skill that will allow us not to operate the railway in a way that we couldn't do so with management. So I think it's important.

[Mike Lake, Conservative, Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB]

So when that small unit shuts down the railway, what is the alternative for the farmer in Mr. Merasty's riding or Ms. Yelich's riding? Do they fly a plane in to carry their wheat? What alternative do they have?

[Sean Finn]

Obviously, when it comes to movement of grain in Canada, there are two railways, but as you know, we don't all service the same attachment point. It would be difficult. There's no doubt that you could shut down the movement of grain in Canada by not having grain being moved for a period of time on the railway, and that's important.

It comes back to my point. It's not just the farmer. Think about the ships sitting in the Port of Vancouver, waiting to receive the 50-car block of grain coming from Saskatoon or from anywhere else in western Canada. The ripple effect is a lot broader. It's broader than just one industry and one partner. It impacts the economy as a whole.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you, Mr. Lake.

We're going to move to our last round. It is the Liberals' turn.

I believe they're okay at this point in time.

[Michael Savage, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

The defence rests.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

We're going to move back to the Conservatives again, and we have Mr. Albrecht for five minutes, please.

[Harold Albrecht, Conservative, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to address a question to Mr. Zoe as well.

I have the privilege of serving on the aboriginal affairs committee as well, and I certainly support any initiative that would increase economic development among our aboriginal, first nations people. I think we have a lot of support for that.

If my figures are correct, BHP says they employ between 1,500 and 2,000 people, roughly 30% of those being aboriginal, so around or up to 600. What percentage of the community—I don't know how you would define that geographically—would that involve for you? Would that involve 50%, 10%...?

[Maurice Zoe]

Under the IBA with the company, BHP, we have a hiring target of 200 aboriginal people from the Dogrib Nation, and because we're dealing with entry-level people with low skills, we can't put all of them in to fill those 200 positions. So our target number is 200. And we have 175 aboriginal people from my community employed with BHP at an average wage of about $70,000 a year.

[Harold Albrecht, Conservative, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

So 175 out of how many, is what I'm trying to get at? Is that half of your community?

[Maurice Zoe]

There are about 600.

[Harold Albrecht, Conservative, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

So it would seem to me that a work stoppage would have a large impact on that size of community.

You mentioned you're a councillor or an interpreter, but I'm not exactly sure what all of your roles are. So you would be in a position to see a lot of the stress that's caused. You mentioned that in your report.

In addition to alcohol, bootlegging, and drug trafficking, have you seen evidence of violence as well because of work stoppages? We often hear the argument that replacement workers create violence on the picket lines. Is there violence as a result of not being at work?

[Maurice Zoe]

I guess there were a lot of people who got caught driving impaired, and all of that, during the strikes. You've got to remember that in an aboriginal community where you have about 470 people, there are only about 20 jobs available for that population of 470.

When BHP came into the picture they offered scholarships and royalties to the aboriginal community that had been impacted. Of that royalty money, aboriginal people used half a million to send people to post-secondary university, and we produced two lawyers with the scholarships. So they did pretty good!

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Maurice Zoe]

In a small community there are no jobs. In maybe our smallest community there are about 120 people and maybe five jobs.

[Harold Albrecht, Conservative, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

I think you've just underlined for me the impact in terms of the aboriginal community, and it certainly plays into this. Mr. Merasty also serves on that committee, and we've just done a study on post-secondary education, and it's interesting to hear you tie that in. I had no idea that would be a component of it, and it's an important one. So thank you.