Evidence of meeting #28 for Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was money.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Michael Atkinson  President, Canadian Construction Association
Cliff Murphy  President, Cape Breton Island Building & Construction Trades Council
Dannie Hanson  Project Manager, Louisbourg Seafoods Ltd., As an Individual
Bruno Gagnon  Chairperson, Task Force on Financing of Employment Insurance, Canadian Institute of Actuaries
Michel Kelly-Gagnon  President, Conseil du patronat du Québec
Jeff Morrison  Director , Government Relations and Public Affairs, Canadian Construction Association
Youri Chassin  Economic Analyst, Conseil du patronat du Québec
Clerk of the Committee  Mr. Jacques Maziade

10:40 a.m.

President, Cape Breton Island Building & Construction Trades Council

Cliff Murphy

Certainly we don't want everybody to leave, especially the skilled tradesmen. Just a couple of years ago, Anadarko, a large oil company, wanted to build a $600 million LNG plant, so they came to Cape Breton. The greatest underlying factor that made them decide to go ahead with the project was that there was a pool of tradespeople there that they could access. So if everybody moves to B.C....

So there's nobody coming with a bag of money, even if it's the perfect place to put something, if they have to bring people in from all over the world to try to build something. You have to maintain a pool of skilled tradesmen in all parts of the country. Sometimes in the dead of winter we'd like to live in Vancouver, but we don't really want to move there.

10:40 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dean Allison

Mr. Hanson.

10:40 a.m.

Project Manager, Louisbourg Seafoods Ltd., As an Individual

Dannie Hanson

We would like to continue to help you out with your employment problem with our people, but you can't take them all.

10:40 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dean Allison

And you want them to come back, right?

10:40 a.m.

Project Manager, Louisbourg Seafoods Ltd., As an Individual

Dannie Hanson

Right. It's fitting that I tell this, because it's not as simple as people going out west or going somewhere else. This gets to my point about controlling this board, this bank account, this crown corporation.

Last month, EI disqualified one of our people who went out to work and then quit because it was unsafe in one of these small companies. They're not all big companies. And—slap!—came in a policy across the board from EI, and he lost his EI. I asked for a review of it. I wrote a five-page letter to tell them that everything was not great and that we couldn't have these blanket policies. That's what happens with crown corporations.

Everything you're trying to do is good, but please don't think we can automatically assume everything is fine.

10:40 a.m.

President, Canadian Construction Association

Michael Atkinson

It's worth pointing out that the crown corporation, as I understand it, is not going to have that power.

10:40 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dean Allison

That's our understanding as well.

10:40 a.m.

Project Manager, Louisbourg Seafoods Ltd., As an Individual

Dannie Hanson

If you can show us how it's not, then we'll accept it.

10:40 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dean Allison

It will be in the legislation. But once again, that's why we're having these meetings—to clarify some of these things, even for members. I think your point is well taken that it might be a good exercise for the government to go and talk to people to help them understand and to alleviate some of their concerns.

Mr. Trost.

10:40 a.m.

Conservative

Bradley Trost Conservative Saskatoon—Humboldt, SK

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I appreciate being able to question the witnesses. I'm not a regular member of the committee. I'm a substitute, but I have found it fairly interesting.

Correct me if I've got the wrong impression, but there seems to be a consensus that the overall concept behind the creation of the Employment Insurance Financing Board affords accountability and clarity and is by and large a good idea that needs only some tweaking. That's what I seem to be gathering, and all the heads are nodding.

So if you will indulge me a little bit, since topics sometimes wander in committee, I'm going to ask a little something on the whole issue that maybe hasn't been addressed today. I'd be curious to see what your reactions are.

One of the witnesses noted that 22% of EI payments are no longer for direct unemployment issues. They're for various other, shall we say, positive social aspects such as relatives being sick, maternity leave, etc. I'm curious to know your reactions and experiences. What if we proposed to separate those two aspects of EI payments and EI premiums, and separated them not just on the payment side but also on the premium side? This would essentially create two EI programs: one for unemployment questions, and one that would deal with the more social aspects. As these surpluses built up, we noted that there came to be all sorts of ideas to use it for other things besides EI.

I'm curious, given your expertise, to see how you think this would impact EI. Would it change things actuarially? Would calculations be easier, simpler? Would there be more risk?

10:45 a.m.

President, Conseil du patronat du Québec

Michel Kelly-Gagnon

We would be very supportive of such a measure. We have for a long time asked that insurance be insurance and social programs be social programs. This way, there can be legitimate political debate about how generous you want your social programs to be. Different governments could have different approaches. If you have an insurance mechanism, it has a certain logic, a certain purpose. It has a certain way of being managed. Ideally, it would be structured that way. When you mix them together, it can become confusing and difficult. So if the government or some parliamentarian wanted to go that route, we would be supportive.

10:45 a.m.

Conservative

Bradley Trost Conservative Saskatoon—Humboldt, SK

In fairness to all the other witnesses, could we ask the next gentleman, please?

May 6th, 2008 / 10:45 a.m.

Chairperson, Task Force on Financing of Employment Insurance, Canadian Institute of Actuaries

Bruno Gagnon

We would also be quite supportive of such an initiative.

By the way, as you probably know, in the province of Quebec we carved out the parental insurance from the EI and it has been repatriated by the provincial government. It's a little more flexible this way. So I agree with Mr. Kelly-Gagnon: leave insurance to insurance, and social things should be preferably different.

10:45 a.m.

Project Manager, Louisbourg Seafoods Ltd., As an Individual

Dannie Hanson

Thank you. I actually didn't think you were listening much to some of our comments, but that's exactly what I have written there—what you said—and I thank you for that. Maybe it's time we looked into that approach and see where it takes us.

10:45 a.m.

President, Cape Breton Island Building & Construction Trades Council

Cliff Murphy

We would certainly say that's a good idea from our perspective, as long as it didn't create a whole other bureaucracy. As workers and employers, we don't want to pay a whole bunch of bureaucrats to work on our behalf. We have to keep that as simple as possible.

10:45 a.m.

President, Canadian Construction Association

Michael Atkinson

We would agree also.

There's some historical reference for this. When the development we used for this was first set up, it was agreed that management and labour would have some control over how those funds were spent. That was what became the Canadian Labour Force Development Board. That has since gone by the wayside, but that was the reason for doing that, to at least segregate that amount, to identify it as a separate amount and have employers and employees decide where best to spend training funds.

10:45 a.m.

Conservative

Bradley Trost Conservative Saskatoon—Humboldt, SK

How's my time, Mr. Chair?

10:45 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dean Allison

You have thirty seconds.

10:45 a.m.

Conservative

Bradley Trost Conservative Saskatoon—Humboldt, SK

I have just a comment. We're out of time.

Mr. Murphy had a very telling point about administrative costs. I think any recommendations on how those could be more efficiently handled so that more of the revenue could either be returned in lower premiums or higher benefits would be appreciated across the board.

I think my time is up, but that's just a comment I'd like to make to the individuals, if they have written submissions for us later.

10:45 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dean Allison

Thank you.

Again, Brad, welcome to the committee.

Mr. Martin, you have five minutes, sir.

10:45 a.m.

NDP

Tony Martin NDP Sault Ste. Marie, ON

Thank you.

I actually want to follow up on the questions that Mr. Trost initiated here, because I think they're important questions. I think that some of the unspoken rationale for moving in this direction is in fact to try to sort out who pays for what and what really fits and what doesn't.

I actually would like to throw a question to our economist here, who hasn't had a chance to speak yet this morning.

There are economists who will put together a whole package of things that fit into that, trying to keep industry stable, trying to protect workplaces so that there are jobs, and training, and bridging pensions for older workers to bring new workers in, to reduce costs.

Mr. Morrison will remember Algoma Steel in the early nineties. When we restructured, there was a lot of money put into pensions for older workers to move them on, because they were the more costly end of the employment scheme, and into bringing new workers in to give new people a chance. Then with the new workers, there was money put into training so that they could be brought up to speed more quickly as they were reinvesting in new technology, and that kind of thing.

There's a whole host of things that you can do, which in some circles would be referred to as more social. You get closer to the edge when you get into, for instance, supporting people who leave the workplace because they have children. It may be seen as social if you support them in that period of time, as opposed to making sure that they're looked after and their families are looked after, so that when they come back to work they are actually happy workers and productive workers--not to speak of the importance of making sure children get a good early start in life with parents around, and early learning, and childhood, and that kind of thing.

Mr. Chassin, where would you draw the line there in terms of what should be paid for by this fund and what shouldn't be paid for by this fund?

10:50 a.m.

Youri Chassin Economic Analyst, Conseil du patronat du Québec

Please allow me to reply in French.

I believe that the various levels of government play a key role in supporting and training workers today. We already have many worker training programs to help them find a job. I am not so sure that the employment insurance fund should pay for training and helping people improve their skills so they can find a new job.

But there may be solutions. We could perhaps study the possibility of recognizing the skills of workers who have a job and which skills might be lost if they were laid off. The issue we are studying today leads me to say that regardless of the manner in which we spend the money from the employment insurance fund, the premiums paid should only go towards paying for employment insurance benefits. As for the other social programs, we believe they should be dealt with separately, and that employment insurance should be indeed just that, namely insurance.

I am probably just answering part of your question, but that's how we see it.

10:50 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dean Allison

You have one minute left, Tony.

10:50 a.m.

NDP

Tony Martin NDP Sault Ste. Marie, ON

Does anybody else want to take a run at that question?

10:50 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dean Allison

Mr. Hanson.