Human Resources Committee on Feb. 10th, 2009

[Diane Finley, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

No. If we had gone with what was anticipated—the break-even rate of EI instead of $1.73—we would have had to increase it considerably, just to maintain a break-even rate. This would have cost employers and employees $4.5 billion more for EI. Those are job-killing taxes that we did not want to impose.

[Tony Martin, NDP, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

What's your definition of “lucrative”, then?

[Diane Finley, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

That's out of context completely. In the 1980s, during the recession, and in the 1990s as well, we had job shortages. We had too many people, not enough jobs. Now, in many parts of this country, we do not have enough skilled people to fill the jobs that exist. That's what we had going into this recession. We expect to have the same situation coming out.

We want to take advantage of this opportunity. We have people who have the opportunity to get new skills. We want to give them the chance to get that training, get the new skills, so that they'll have jobs that will last a long time. That's what we're trying to do. That's good for them, the employers, and our economy. It's good for everyone. We want to make sure they have the chance to get the training they need.

[Tony Martin, NDP, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

There are 140 people who have already lost their jobs in the Soo, at Essar Steel. There are 500 or 600 who will lose their jobs in Sudbury. Can you tell me today, so I can take it back to them, where they should go to get these jobs that are available?

[Diane Finley, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

It varies from sector to sector and region to region, but unless they have the skills, they won't be able to apply. We're trying to make sure they have access to the training that will give them the skills. But until we get this budget passed, we won't be able to move forward.

[Tony Martin, NDP, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

We're hearing dire information coming from some of the places that people were moving to in order to try to get these jobs. There's Calgary, Alberta, where oil fields and refineries are shutting down. There were lots of jobs out there, but not any more.

I think you want to be careful not to set people's expectations up and then have them not fulfilled. I don't know anybody out of work and on EI who doesn't want to get another job. I mean, 45% doesn't give you much. They want to work.

[Diane Finley, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

I agree—

[Tony Martin, NDP, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

So none of them see EI as lucrative. They just want to work, and they're having a hard time figuring out where they're going to get that work.

[Diane Finley, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

One of the areas that I might suggest they consider, in answer to your question, is the health care area. There are shortages of skills, from patient support workers right through to brain surgeons and orderlies, nursing staff, radiologists, and therapists—

[Tony Martin, NDP, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

So how does a steel worker become a health care worker in enough time to continue to make sure they don't lose their house and they pay the bills and feed the family and all of those kinds of things? How does that happen?

[Diane Finley, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

Well, this is through the programs that we're working on with the provinces and through our support for long-tenured workers, who could have EI supports for up to two years while they get training.

[Tony Martin, NDP, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

But these are not there yet.

[Diane Finley, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

We have to get the budget passed first, before they can access these.

[Tony Martin, NDP, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

Okay. Moving on to another issue, there is the whole question of eligibility for EI. We'll argue about the numbers, but the Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives suggests that it's as high as 60% of applicants who don't qualify. Others, such as the Province of Ontario, claim that only 28% on average qualify, and 22% in the Toronto area. You'll say it's higher. At the end of the day, there will still be a residual group of people who will not qualify because of the rules in place now.

What do you suggest they do, the folks who don't qualify for EI?

[Diane Finley, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

Well, I think we need to clarify the numbers that are being presented: 82% of those who pay into EI are able to claim it these days. All right? There are a lot of people who don't pay it, but we are making our training programs available to the self-employed, to those who have been out of the workplace for a long time, to those who don't qualify for EI.

My cousin, for example, has been home raising a young family. She's taking training to get into the health care field because, through the kinds of programs that we're trying to expand now with this budget, she would have that opportunity to do it—and she's even getting child care support while she does this, so that she can get into the workforce in a job that will last her and her family a long time.

[Tony Martin, NDP, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

Okay, we'll have to agree to disagree on some of that and on the opportunity that is there.

But in making the decision not to waive the two-week waiting period, what analysis or study did you do to indicate that wasn't a good public policy to introduce?

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

You have one minute left.

[Diane Finley, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

The very first thing we did was we listened to Canadians right across this country, from coast to coast to coast. They said if we had dollars to invest, they wanted to see those in longer benefit terms, because they were concerned that the people in the hardest hit areas were going to take longer to find jobs, and it would be at the end of—

[Tony Martin, NDP, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

With the encouragement of the finance minister, I had my own consultation in Sault Ste. Marie, and what I heard from every person who actually presented—and we spent a whole afternoon and evening there. The first or second thing they said was, reform of EI—

[Diane Finley, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

Yes.

[Tony Martin, NDP, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

—and changing the eligibility rules.

But you obviously didn't listen to the folks from my area, and I would suggest that they clearly represent a large number of people across northern Ontario who have been reeling from unemployment for quite some time now, particularly given the downsizing in the forestry industry, and now in mining and manufacturing.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you. That's all the time we have for this round.

[Michael Savage, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

On a point of order, Mr. Chair, if I heard the minister correctly a few minutes ago, she said that 82% of those who pay into EI can draw it? Is that what she said? Is that confirmed by her officials?

[Diane Finley, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

Hopefully, it's confirmed.

[Michael Savage, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

Well, Mr. Chair, I would ask for some validation of that, because that is not my understanding.