Human Resources Committee on Feb. 26th, 2009

[Michael Savage, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

Let's wait one more turn, then, and see if Madame Folco comes back. If not, we've got lots of questions.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

We'll just switch around. I'm going to go with Mr. Lobb, then, for five minutes, and then we'll come back to the Liberals.

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and again, thank you for taking the time out of your busy schedules to come and present your information. It must almost be exhilarating working these days with a government that is so committed to the issues we're here with today. I know I'm very excited, and we see in your report that $13 billion has been invested in child care spaces and tens of thousands of child care spaces created with the working income tax benefit. We know that has worked well, with more than a million people being able to access that. That's fantastic to see. With another $580 million getting invested as well this year, you must be proud to work in a department that's so committed to these issues.

One thing I haven't noticed in all the information I've read so far, and it could be that I'm not looking in the right spot, is any distinctions between or any statistics on rural poverty versus urban poverty. I wondered if you had any comments on that or any information you could provide us. If not, if you could report back to us, and that gets into the next part I'm going to. I know from your report as well the market basket measure. In there, we know it's geographically sensitive, which would highlight some of those things.

I also saw you're looking at some changes in that. I wondered, particularly, what are you looking at in that area?

[Frank Fedyk]

I can start, and Shawn can add.

The market basket measures have five components. The food basket was based on the office of the nutrition policy from Health Canada from 1998. We're expecting to update that based on the 2008 food basket, so that it will reflect the nutrition guidelines as of today.

There's a transportation component. For the element for transportation in rural areas, where it's necessary to have a car in order to get around, the standard in the original estimate was a five-year-old Cavalier, a GM product that is no longer in production. We're working with our colleagues at Statistics Canada to see what would be a more appropriate vehicle.

We're also looking at shelter cost, which is a housing component. As colleagues have described, the issue is with respect to home owners without mortgages, who don't have the same out-of-pocket expenses as those who have them. We're looking at how to adjust for that, as well as for the many low-income individuals who benefit from rent-geared-to-income supplements. We want to reflect that too in assessing their disposable income.

Those are some of the characteristics we're looking at with respect to improving the elements in the basket.

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

When we look through the MBM again, how finite or how micro do you become in getting into your regions? For example, I'm from southwestern Ontario, which might be quite different from eastern Ontario and northern Ontario. I'm wondering whether there's information that would highlight these differences.

[Frank Fedyk]

In the report we're tabling, there are tables at the back that illustrate the cities that are available. We have 48 communities for which we have calculated MBM statistics. For those cities, we do urban versus rural areas.

[Sylvie Michaud]

There have been two questions related basically to how much we can produce small-area information, because we're working with low geographical data.

Once every five years we have the census of the population, the long form. In 2006 you could have very large geographic breakdowns to look at low income, but it would be using just the LICO, our current low-income cut-off. With the 2011 census, you'll be able to look at your geography with the MBM as well as with the LICO; both will be available.

It also gives you a proportion.... You have shelter costs and can calculate the ratio of shelter cost to income. That again at the local level might be something interesting for you to monitor and look at.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you, Mr. Lobb.

We're now going to move to our last questioner today. We have Madame Folco, for five minutes.

[Raymonde Folco, Liberal, Laval—Les Îles, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Firstly, I wish to thank you for your understanding. I also want to thank my colleagues for their generosity.

I have two questions to ask. I will be brief, because I know that we have very little time left.

My first question refers to pages 8 and 11 of your summary on the incidence of low income. On page 8, you talk about the formation of the family, and how this is a significant factor. On page 11, you talk about the widening gap for unattached persons between 45 and 64 years of age. I suppose that women are much more affected than men. If this is the case, why did you not indicate it? That is my first question.

My second question is a bit longer and is a follow-up to the question asked previously by Ms. Cadman. It deals with recent immigrants. Recent immigrants frequently turn to settlement organizations, non-government organizations. In a time of economic weakness, one can suppose that these organizations and these NGOs, particularly settlement organizations, will be under a lot of economic pressure, and will have even fewer resources than they have ever had, since they rely almost entirely on subsidies from the municipal, provincial and federal governments.

Considering that the organizations themselves will be poorer, and yet their services will be in even greater demand, do you predict that the cohort of recent immigrants will be even more underprivileged than ever?

[Garnett Picot]

Maybe I'll take a shot at the first one.

The overall low-income rate for women in 2006, the latest data we have, was 10.9%; and for men it was 10.1%. So in the aggregate there is still some difference between the two.

I'd just like to reiterate what Shawn was saying earlier about the improvements, especially for single moms. Through the 1990s and 2000s, we've seen really significant falls in the low-income rate for that population, mainly because they're working more and they're earning more money. So there is still a gap, but it's not as great as it used to be.

I don't really have much to say about the funding of NGOs.

[Frank Fedyk]

We have—

[Raymonde Folco, Liberal, Laval—Les Îles, QC]

Mr. Fedyk, you're answering the question

with respect to the formation of the family as well as unattached seniors.

[Garnett Picot]

If we look at unattached individuals, the low-income rates are very similar but they're much higher, as we've pointed out. For unattached women, the low-income rate is 29.6%; and for unattached men, it's 28.8%. So there's a small gap, but not too much difference between the two.

[Raymonde Folco, Liberal, Laval—Les Îles, QC]

Thank you.

Mr. Fedyk.

[Frank Fedyk]

With respect to support for recent immigrants, our programs are through the training benefits, opportunities to acquire the skills or to get their foreign credentials recognized so that they can integrate into the labour market. That has been our focus.

I'll do some checking to see if there is support for the NGOs. I'm not aware of any of our programs that support non-governmental organizations directly, but I'll look into it and see if we have any detail.

[Raymonde Folco, Liberal, Laval—Les Îles, QC]

Could I just suggest that certainly the lack of Canadian certification is an extremely important aspect, but the lack of Canadian experience, or at least how prospective employers view the lack of Canadian experience, is very important. You could have all the Canadian papers you like, all the equivalencies you like, yet you still aren't going to get a job. That's why I'm bringing in the NGOs and the level of poverty.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Is that all? Okay. That's everyone for today.

I want to thank the witnesses for being here and for taking time to answer our questions. We have a few things to deal with in terms of future business, but I'm going to release you now and thank you once again.

I realize that if there are any more questions we have that haven't been answered today or through what you're going to provide us, there's always a chance that we may bring you kicking and screaming back to the committee. Thank you very much for taking the time to be here.

I want to address a couple of issues before we go.

The committee had asked that we look at trying to bring in the Quebec government and the Ontario government on Tuesday. So far, we have heard back from the Quebec government, and they say they will not be able to make it. Ontario has not gotten back to us. I want your permission to say that if we can't get Ontario here on Tuesday, we'd be able to look at future business; we'd be able to take the list that we gave all the members and determine, for the researchers and for the clerk, some of the witnesses we can then begin to call.

Madame Folco.

[Raymonde Folco, Liberal, Laval—Les Îles, QC]

Are you saying that Quebec actually said no, and that's it? Or did they say no, they're not available on that date?

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

They said no, they're not interested. We're looking at trying to bring in some academics.

[Maria Minna, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

Is that the same for Ontario?

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

No, we're waiting to hear back on Ontario.

What we're suggesting is that we have a briefing note already prepared for Ontario, so we will go with them if they call back. If not, we'll get them at a later point in time.

[Maria Minna, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

All right, but if for any reason they say no, could you let me know?

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

We feel that they're interested but it's a question of timing.

As far as Quebec goes, we're still looking at some academics who would be interested. So we haven't forgotten. We'll continue to pursue other options.

[Raymonde Folco, Liberal, Laval—Les Îles, QC]

I'm very disappointed that my own provincial government is refusing to come to Ottawa, or even talk to us about this. I wonder whether I might be able to get the names and coordinates of the people you were in touch with, to see whether there is anything I can do on this.

I don't know what to say.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

I'm going to suggest that maybe, off the record, we have a conversation afterwards with the researchers.

Mr. Lessard.