Human Resources Committee on April 23rd, 2013

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Thank you for that response.

We'll go to Mr. Butt.

[Brad Butt, Conservative, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Welcome to all three of you. Thank you for being here today.

Meenu, I'm going to start with you. I have a couple of questions for you because you made some specific recommendations. I'd like to get a little bit more of an idea of what you're suggesting.

I do know that in the Region of Peel we have a service called TransHelp, which is used predominantly by individuals with physical disabilities who may need to get to and from work every day, as it's possible. That's very rigid and structured, and it's not always the most convenient service.

You and I have met. I know that you have your own vehicle, but you've spent a considerable amount of money on modifying it so that you can operate it, so that you can actually drive your van with your hand controls.

I do know that governments spend quite a lot of money on subsidizing services like TransHelp. You talked about a tax credit or something of that nature which would help you pay to modify your personal vehicle to get to and from work each day. Have you looked at the numbers? Do you have an idea of what governments are currently subsidizing for that rider who's using that TransHelp bus in the Region of Peel every day to go to and from work?

Do you know what that's adding up to in a year versus maybe what you're proposing and if our committee were to recommend that the government look at some sort of credit to help with or reimburse some of the costs of modifying your own vehicle? Have you done a comparison? Do you have an idea of what numbers we're looking at?

[Meenu Sikand]

Thank you for the question. Yes, I have.

Peel's numbers are pretty comparable to the transportation numbers across Canada. In Peel, what I've been told is that 90% of the ride cost is subsidized by the government. The user only pays 10% of the cost. If a ride on accessible transportation on average costs $35 per ride, and if you even very conservatively take two rides a day—simply going to and from work is two rides—that means you are subsidizing that rider to the tune of $450 each week. Over 52 weeks that subsidy is $23,660. If a vehicle lasts five to six years—let's use five years—during that five years, if that person is not using their vehicle, you're subsidizing accessible transportation for that person at $118,000.

I'm simply asking you to take a look at that. Through a tax credit, if you reimburse that one-year cost to an individual who, to become employable and retain employment, is willing to purchase and drive their own vehicle, you'd still save close to $90,000 even if the vehicle lasts five years. I stretch my vehicle to seven or eight years, whatever I can, and I maintain it. That's a significant saving. You're also taking a disadvantage, or disincentive, from people, because when they look at their net income and it's so low compared to the people who don't need those services, a lot of people with disabilities say, “Why don't I stay on ODSP and not have all these income inequalities?”

You're taking the disincentive, but I think in the long run, as the population is aging, you'll be seeing more and more people who are not able to drive, so you'll need to address the needs of those people through accessible transportation. But whoever can manage their own driving, or hire somebody to drive a personal vehicle, at the end you will be saving money for the people who are aging and will definitely need that accessible transportation.

I'm not saying everybody will be able to benefit from this tax credit, but for people who can, it eventually will be a saving for the government and will increase employability. Also people will be able to manage their lifestyle and that of their families.

I'm a caregiver to my mom who's 78 years old. I need to drive her. I need to drive my 12-year-old to soccer games and other things. So you're also making me a productive adult who has many roles to play in society.

Does that answer your question?

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

A short concluding comment or question and we'll conclude.

[Brad Butt, Conservative, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

Yes.The reason I brought up transportation, and now I'm going to very briefly talk about the personal service worker aspect, is that I think a lot of the time this committee is focused on the individual in employment from nine to five, but not how the individual gets there and gets back home. That's why your perspective is important.

Let me ask you to clarify about your recommendations regarding a personal care worker. Obviously, somebody is helping you at 7 a.m. to get ready so you can get into that vehicle and get to your job at the Region of Peel, and when you come back home, someone has to be there as well. What were your specific ideas around something the federal government could do about making it more accessible, easier, or more affordable to have that personal care worker who's essential to getting you ready to get to your job every day, in your case for the Region of Peel, or whatever the individual's job happens to be? What was that recommendation again? Then I'll be done.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

If you could make it really brief, we'd appreciate it.

[Meenu Sikand]

It's twofold. One is that I'm asking you to give me access to those caregivers, so I ask you to take a look at your foreign-trained caregivers category. Right now, finding people who are willing to work morning and evening shifts for adults who are managing their own attendant care on their own, is very difficult.

Equally important is to have funds that are allocated to me. Today I am greatly appreciated at the Region of Peel, but if tomorrow a better opportunity or another peer opportunity comes along, I'd be able to take that opportunity and take my funds with me to another province. What I'm asking you is to take a leadership role, work with the provinces, because you're also going to help provinces fill that labour shortage. Work with them to develop an interprovincial agreement so that disability supports are tied to the individual, are portable Canada-wide. Make it a Canada-wide disability direct funding program, not only attached to the provinces.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Thank you for that response.

We'll move to Monsieur Lapointe.

[François Lapointe, NDP, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank our three witnesses for joining us this morning.

I would like to ask each of you a question, but one of the difficult parts of being committee members is that we have only five minutes to question highly knowledgeable and intelligent witnesses. So if I have to speed up the debate a bit, it is not because I am not interested, but because I am limited to five minutes.

Mr. Masek, while you were employed at the movie theatre and the work station issue arose, was there not at any point some openness regarding the possibility of an occupational therapist determining whether one of the work stations could be adapted to your needs?

Did you have easy access to those services? Did you have an opportunity to meet with the employer, with the assistance of a competent person, or were you left to your own devices?

[Alex Masek]

Actually, they didn't really help me at all. They basically shrugged it off. I talked to a couple of the employers and I talked to my manager, because at the point that was the boss I went to. They were basically on the boss's side.

[François Lapointe, NDP, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

So no one in the public service encouraged you not to face this problem alone? No one told you that an occupational therapist, with your manager, could help you figure out whether some sort of adaptation based on your needs was possible? If I have understood correctly, no service was offered to you spontaneously in an attempt to help you resolve that issue.

[Alex Masek]

That would not be educational for me. I wouldn't know where to look. As I was growing up, I always figured stuff out on my own, so I couldn't—

[François Lapointe, NDP, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

Thank you very much, Alex.

Mrs. Sikand, access to paratransit is an issue that comes up often. I think that the situation has improved over the past few decades in downtown areas, but it is more complicated in rural areas. For instance, very few people over a stretch of 100 km or 150 km need the same service. So it is practically impossible for public authorities to be profitable. I don't know whether you have any ideas about that.

In no way do I want to diminish the importance of the paratransit need. However, there are some new technologies available. I made a small contribution to the development of an evaluation principle through Skype. It enables people at the other end of the province to use Skype to talk to a consultant and have their home evaluated. I must admit that, while we were developing this project, we never thought that it could be the perfect job opportunity for a disabled person. That kind of a work station could even be installed in the person's home. Yet I do not think we had the presence of mind to contact a university-educated acquaintance who may have been in a wheelchair. I would like to know what you think about those two matters.

Ms. Soulliere, if any time is left, I would like to talk about the undue administrative burden in the area of social action. I cannot believe that I used to spend 35% to 40% of my time in filling out documents to help illiterate people instead of teaching them to read. I did that for two years.

We know what the problem is, but do you have any solutions to recommend? I would really like to hear them, and I would like this problem to be resolved, to the extent possible.

[Meenu Sikand]

I will answer quickly on the points you raised.

Skype is a great opportunity to connect, and I do use Skype socially. Some jobs can be done through Skype. I think that people with disabilities want choices. If they are to find comparative employment at the employer's place, they should have mobility choices and they should have access to accessible vehicles.

In rural municipalities, a lot of time the service is only available at certain times, perhaps 9 to 4. What if they find a call centre job in the evening? They can't access that employment.

For rural areas, an accessible transportation tax credit would be even more valuable. Many municipalities are getting out of providing accessible transportation completely, because of the cost.

What was the third point? There was accessible transportation, Skype....

Again, not everybody is able to stay at home. Not all jobs are like that. It would be really great for people with disabilities to have choices, as any other Canadian has in choosing employment.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Thank you for that response.

We'll conclude with a response from Ms. Soulliere.

[Linda Soulliere]

I think the simplest solution is multi-year contracts. We used to get three-year contracts, which were great. They allowed us stability and we were able to set up the systems. They also allowed us to have a little flexibility around participants, the number of groups that you could hold.

When you start going down to 42 weeks or 48 weeks—I recently got two contracts that were each six months in length—it makes it really hard to address the true issues. By the time you get the program up and started, it's almost over.

I think you need to go back to multi-year contracts.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Thank you for that comment.

We'll go to Ms. Leitch.

[Kellie Leitch, Conservative, Simcoe—Grey, ON]

Thank you very much, everyone, for taking some time to share your views and your personal stories with us today.

We hear about a number of new programs and different items that are often presented by individual employers and different organizations. What do you think are the key components of those new initiatives put forward that really make them successful? You have mentioned some of them, or you may see, for example, the Boys and Girls Club, or the coalition, or otherwise. If we were looking at new or possible other initiatives, what are those sorts of key success factors to creating a program that aids an individual with a disability to enter into the workforce? What would you say the top three items are in what we should be considering?

[Linda Soulliere]

I think one of the major things is the essential skills component. Then you have to have a long enough period so that there can be time to identify accommodations that are going to be needed in the workplace. Then there's having effective job development. Most of our clients don't find jobs on their own. We have to do some direct intervention. You have to be able to have adequate funding for job development and you need really strong post-hiring support. I think, especially when you're looking at youth, that you should have the longer essential skills program where you can deal with things like whether their medications are proper, or whether they need to address hygiene. We have a lot of very difficult clients and we often have to deal with appropriate behaviours in school. That's why the practice terms were so good, because it was a three-month intervention where they could be in a non-threatening work environment where we could address all of the issues.

I think you have to look at a combination. Those programs work well for our clients. I'm not sure about everybody, but then, when the client moves to employment, we already have an accommodation plan, so we know what they need when they get there and we can negotiate that with the employer.

[Kellie Leitch, Conservative, Simcoe—Grey, ON]

Do either of you have a comment?

[Meenu Sikand]

If I may say, I support everything Linda said. I also say to make it specific to the individual. If the person wants to use the coalition or any other agency, that disability support service should be tied to the individual. At the same time, organizations have a great role to play, so keep funding those organizations. We have Independent Living Canada in Ottawa. We test 27 centres because they will provide the peer support and the knowledge that Alex just mentioned he was lacking when there was an employer discriminating. Fund those organizations as well, but also provide disability support, and adequate support, to individuals with disabilities who need it. That would be my recommendation. Also, support places such as Independent Living Canada, who will provide peer supports and help other youth to develop the confidence that I have today to be part of the workforce.

[Kellie Leitch, Conservative, Simcoe—Grey, ON]

I'm going to cut you off because I want to hear from Alex as well.

[Alex Masek]

I'm pretty sure I understood it correctly.

To add to what she said, I don't know if they have a program like that or an organization that talks to people with disabilities and finds their skills and finds the best skills that they have so that they can use those skills to find employment or somewhere that they could work and excel. I haven't seen anything online or anything that is like that, but I think it's very important that everybody has a skill that they could use. Why not find that skill and use it to the best of their ability?

[Kellie Leitch, Conservative, Simcoe—Grey, ON]

To your point, on the opportunities fund for individuals with disabilities, the programs that are provided do provide that sort of skills assessment component, so your point is very well taken.

With respect to moving forward, you have all mentioned at one point in time partnerships working with other organizations. What do you find is the most valuable component part of the partnerships that you develop? How are you best developing partnerships with employers to facilitate opportunities for individuals with disabilities to enter into the workplace? What is that key component of your partnership with the employers that allows that transfer of a skill someone has developed with the program you're providing or a skill that they may have to enter into the workplace?

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

The time is up, so try to make your responses brief for anyone who wants to respond.