Human Resources Committee on May 7th, 2013

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

A short response, please.

[Linda Silas]

It's any occupational health and safety programs, because we have to realize that health care is one of the less safe areas of our system. We need to build a culture of safety, and if we take that experience and say, no, this is not how you should be doing it, you should protect your back, knees, environment, that would be a great area. We see it happening. There's a proposal in New Brunswick. In Nova Scotia we had as simple a thing as bed lifts everywhere. They also had lifting teams.

I don't know if you remember, but I remember when intensive care orderlies were the size of your colleagues. They were wide, six feet tall men, not little women like you and I, and they were able to lift patients. It's very important. We have these lift teams. You call the lift team; you don't lift a patient. They're quite healthy men.

[Kellie Leitch, Conservative, Simcoe—Grey, ON]

Great. Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Thank you very much.

We'll then go to Mr. Cuzner to conclude for us.

[Rodger Cuzner, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

I just have a quick story and then the question. When I worked in Fort McMurray with the recreational department, the summer crew, the cut crew, came to us and asked if they could work four 10-hour shifts—they worked 8-hour shifts, five days a week—and we split the crews up. We had two crews going so that we had coverage five days a week, but every second week was a long weekend for them. They'd be able to shut down Thursday, they'd be gone Friday, and then they wouldn't start up again until Tuesday. It was a really neat thing that worked out well for them. We did that all summer.

I moved back to Nova Scotia and I was back in the recreation business. I floated this with the outdoor maintenance crew in the summer, to loosen up some weekend time for them, and they thought it was a great idea. They went back to their union, and their union said, well, sure, you can go with that, but we want time and a half for those last two hours of the day in that 10-hour day. They wouldn't budge on that, so we didn't get what we wanted. With getting gear out and getting gear back, you get a lot more work done with a 10-hour shift. It was something we would have benefited from, the crew would have benefited from, but they said the collective agreement wouldn't allow for that.

We look at StatsCan saying that if we want to get older workers back into the workforce, we need more flexibility in their workday—flexible hours, part-time work, receiving a pension. Have you seen an instance of where management and the union have been able to sit down and agree on some situations through the collective agreement that accommodated older workers coming back?

[Linda Silas]

In health care, everything is about flexibility and rotation. There's nothing more sacred than your rotation, because of the 24/7 business. We have a rotation of 10 hours, 12 hours, 8 hours, 4 hours, which I don't personally like, but they do exist. A lot of older workers will take the 4-hour shift. They will come in in the afternoon, when there are a lot of surgeries, for example. It's all about negotiations, and that's important, but you need flexibility and you need the power at the employer level to make those changes. But they do exist everywhere.

I worked on the four on, five off, which was two days of 12 hours and two days of nights, and I thought I was working part-time. Because you had five days off, you were able to recuperate, which is very important. But they do exist.

[Rodger Cuzner, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

That's good. So you're seeing those.

What's the main reason why nurses make that decision to retire? Are you able to measure that? Are you able to make a comment on why most nurses retire?

[Linda Silas]

It's the dissatisfaction with what's happening in the system. If there's no progress or if you feel you can't provide good care, you leave. After so many years, it shows, and then they do retire.

Our problem is yes, there is a bulge of nurses ready to retire, but the studies show that of nurses with two years of experience, 60% are saying they're not staying in the system. That's even more worrisome than the more seasoned group at the other end.

[Rodger Cuzner, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

You're saying they're making that decision because they're frustrated with the system?

[Linda Silas]

Yes. You have to be in the system. To have patients in hallways, families concerned, not being able to answer their questions, not enough staff, it can be a very sad situation. Saying that, there's great experience out there. But when that's a constant.... Most of our facilities should be working on an 85% capacity; they're working at 125%, 150%. So there's no time out there to breathe or to learn, or to sympathize with your families.

[Rodger Cuzner, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Do you have any kind of indication as to how many come back into the profession, come back in on a part-time basis? You wouldn't know that?

[Linda Silas]

No. Sorry, I don't have those statistics here.

[Rodger Cuzner, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Okay, that's fine.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Thank you, Mr. Cuzner. Your time is almost up.

We thank you very much for coming before us and sharing your thoughts on this very important subject.

[Linda Silas]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

We're going to suspend for a few moments to let you gather your material and leave, and then we have some committee business to deal with.

I will suspend for a couple of minutes and ask the members to sit around the table, if they could.

[Proceedings continue in camera]