Evidence of meeting #25 for Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was aboriginal.
A recording is available from Parliament.
9:05 a.m.
NDP
The Vice-Chair (Ms. Jinny Jogindera Sims) NDP Jinny Sims
Thank you very much.
Now over to Ms. McLeod.
9:05 a.m.
Conservative
Cathy McLeod Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC
Thank you.
Thank you to both the witnesses for your presentation.
I think I'll pick up this conversation where we left off with the last questioner, in terms of the data. I think you're not obviously the first who has talked about the data. I found it an intriguing suggestion. Someone suggested we set up something like CIHI. Of course, health care is provincially delivered, but it has very robust and important information in it.
I'll talk to you both about data. For example, do you read each province's report in terms of the LMDA and how they spend the money? What do you recommend in terms of what we need to do to get a proper and robust data source?
I'll leave that to both witnesses.
9:05 a.m.
Senior Manager, Community Benefits and Sustainability, Northern Gateway Pipeline, Enbridge Inc.
We certainly do follow, provincially and nationally, the reporting on LMDA just to get a sense of the labour market and where the skill gap is. It's clear that the robust data is really important. On the flight over, I was reading about the B.C. job plan and how data drives decisions. I thought that was a really good comment.
From our standpoint, having access to data is really important because we need to help our communities identify the best alignment. Again, it gets back to that model of shared responsibilities. In terms of a recommendation, a national system that's easily accessible also by communities is really important, so that we can help individuals make informed decisions.
9:10 a.m.
Vice-President, National Policy, Canadian Manufacturers and Exporters
I personally have not read every province's report. I'm lucky enough in our organization to have offices across the country who do this. They commented back to me that they are just as mystified as to where the money is going as we would be here in Ottawa. These are offices of ours that actually get some of the LMDA funding right across the country to do training programs. The data that's needed.... I think part of this is that there's been a really big shift over the last decade or so in terms of what's needed by people to make decisions, and what worked in the sixties and seventies doesn't work today in terms of data.
One of the things I mentioned, if you look at just the labour market information data as an example, is that we're trying to pilot with the ESDC a new kind of consortia of post-labour market information that looks at bringing employers together with universities and colleges locally to try to figure out new ways of collecting and analyzing data, because the old approach is not working.
This is something we're literally just getting off the ground now and working very closely with Minister Kenney and the folks at ESDC to see if it can provide better data than what's available right now.
9:10 a.m.
Conservative
Cathy McLeod Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC
Mr. Wilson, you talked about the On-Site program that was cancelled. That was a federally delivered program. Could you tell us a little bit more about that particular program and why you found it so helpful? Could you just share a bit more on that issue?
9:10 a.m.
Vice-President, National Policy, Canadian Manufacturers and Exporters
I'll try to be brief. I think, just in general, what worked was that it matched people who were unemployed and on the EI system with jobs that were needed in the workforce, that were available with employers who actually needed people to come in.
Training was provided on the job. It was industry specific and the companies could train people up to the standards that they needed. That hands-on industry-driven approach is really what provides a lot of good results. The folks from Enbridge northern gateway shared some of their experiences specifically on that as well.
For us, those are the types of programs, and that was just one example. What I was told—and I wasn't involved at the time—was that at some time when the new system came in, around 2004 or 2005, whenever it was, HRSDC said at the time that this type of training wasn't what they were doing anymore and that they wanted to do different things even though it had very positive economic results. It was a change in the way things were being done.
Those are examples of things that were done in the past that linked unemployed Canadians directly to available jobs without costing a lot more money because it was the existing EI funding that was available. Those are the types of things that we'd like to see more of going forward for sure.
9:10 a.m.
Conservative
Cathy McLeod Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC
A quick question to Enbridge, do you find that the ASETS program is more beneficial, and LMA, in terms of the groundbreaking work you're doing or the preliminary work you're doing in the communities? Or is it that you're accessing LMDA more?
9:10 a.m.
Senior Manager, Community Benefits and Sustainability, Northern Gateway Pipeline, Enbridge Inc.
Certainly, the ASETS agreement is very effective in preparing, training-ready and nearly work-ready people. It does a great job. There are some excellent examples of great success.
From my perspective, the LMA funding is really critical, the funding for individuals who are not labour market attached, but there's also a gap. There are some individuals who wouldn't qualify for EI benefits or EI reach back and therefore aren't really ready for that LMDA program or don't qualify. They're not LMA either.
Yet, that group in the middle has the best outcome of success statistically. The widening of programs is really important to be more inclusive.
9:10 a.m.
NDP
9:10 a.m.
Liberal
Rodger Cuzner Liberal Cape Breton—Canso, NS
Thanks very much, Madam Chair, and thanks to both witnesses today.
Catherine, I'm going to ask you about the culture around trying to maybe impact a change in the culture in northern communities. We've done a number of studies that are very similar. I know Mathew has been in front of us probably.... He's like Justin Timberlake on Saturday Night Live minus a whole lot of sexy.
9:10 a.m.
Vice-President, National Policy, Canadian Manufacturers and Exporters
I don't sing very well either, just so you know.
9:10 a.m.
Liberal
Rodger Cuzner Liberal Cape Breton—Canso, NS
A number of witnesses continue to come back and talk about how they changed the culture. Even before you get into working with people to develop skills, the challenge I would think you guys are facing now is.... In a perfect world everybody has windmills and solar panels but in the real world fossil fuels are a huge part of the mix, and getting it to market and maximizing its impact, understanding that it's safer to pipeline than to railcar it, are you finding that you have to work with the community to understand that industry isn't an enemy, that opportunities exist, and that these are new opportunities?
I've spent a fair amount of time in Fort McMurray and I saw the community grow with the industry. As you're going into virgin territory here, is there a parallel cultural change that you guys are having to deal with even before you get into the training?
9:15 a.m.
Senior Manager, Community Benefits and Sustainability, Northern Gateway Pipeline, Enbridge Inc.
Certainly creating a space for learning is really important within communities in the north northwest, specifically in B.C., where much of this is new discussion, although northeast B.C. has been active in the oil and gas sector for a good number of years. But there is certainly much new information in the northwest.
We have been working with communities on providing information around energy literacy and understanding energy more broadly.
Two workshops that we've funded are occurring in north and northwestern B.C. this week. The energy literacy workshop has a component that teaches community helpers about the oil and gas sector and about the jobs that exist within that sector so those community helpers, employment counsellors, and social development workers have a better sense of how to link the current skills of their clientele to those jobs.
The truth of the matter is that these jobs in the oil and gas sector are highly transferable, so there is a lot of opportunity for growth and development. Many of the skills in the north northwest are really well situated for employment within our sector more broadly.
9:15 a.m.
Liberal
Rodger Cuzner Liberal Cape Breton—Canso, NS
That's great, thanks.
Matt, with regard to your comment on the difficulty of trying to measure the impact of LMDA investments and trying to outsource, do you see that a sharper tool or a better process in trying to track those investments would...? If you can measure it, then you can fix it.
9:15 a.m.
Vice-President, National Policy, Canadian Manufacturers and Exporters
Yes, I think that in any business, you need to be able to measure your results. If you're not measuring the specific results....
They don't always have to be economic. Obviously you want to look at social and other results, but there is barely any data on a result. I'm not sure that's a problem with the agreements between the federal government and the provinces, or whether it's something the provinces don't want to do. That's something for the bureaucrats to figure out here in Ottawa.
But if you don't have that basic data on what the outcomes are, it's pretty hard to make any meaningful decisions on what's going on. To me that's fundamental. Every business person would rely on data to change their direction on things and that's what we need to do on this one too. If it's not available, those tools need to be put in place fairly quickly.
9:15 a.m.
NDP
9:15 a.m.
NDP
The Vice-Chair (Ms. Jinny Jogindera Sims) NDP Jinny Sims
Okay, thank you.
We're moving on to Mr. Butt.
9:15 a.m.
Conservative
Brad Butt Conservative Mississauga—Streetsville, ON
I am quite interested to know how we can improve the LMDA programs and how we can get employers.... I think the key is that employers have to play a much bigger role in this, and not just the agencies that often get the funding and are contracted to do the training. I believe we've missed the boat in many respects by not engaging employers more in the process.
Do you have any ideas or specific recommendations you can share with the committee on how either employment associations like CME as an example and others, or direct employers, private sector companies, are involved in training either on site or in a location where they can partner with a trade union or someone who can do the very specific types of training that we need?
9:20 a.m.
Senior Manager, Community Benefits and Sustainability, Northern Gateway Pipeline, Enbridge Inc.
Certainly. To answer specifically your question around getting employers engaged and having them more active in the process, I think the job grant certainly lends itself well to that engagement piece. I think that's really important. I really like the idea of providing mobility funding so that we can help workers move across the country in a more seamless and appropriate fashion to fill jobs. Certainly, ensuring that employers have a voice in identifying—and we talked about data tools earlier—what their needs are and what the needs look like in the future is going to be really important.
But I go back to a message that I want to bring to this committee, which is that essential skills are critical before training for technical skills. So the employers that I work with, and certainly, from our standpoint.... We have a number of contractors that construct projects, and we operate them. We and those contractors want to hire local people. We want to hire local northern residents, aboriginal people, Canadians. Quite frankly, we need to ensure they have the essential skills first. There's a huge market of people out there that we could reach, and I think our employers would be fully on board with supporting those essential skills.
9:20 a.m.
Conservative
Brad Butt Conservative Mississauga—Streetsville, ON
I'm sorry to interrupt. I wrote down essential skills with a question mark. What exactly are we talking about? Are we talking about literacy? Are we just talking about basic...teaching people that they have to get up in the morning and show up to work on time? Is that what you're talking about in the way of essential skills, or can you give me some other examples of exactly what it is you're talking about that you think these individuals need to be job ready?
9:20 a.m.
Senior Manager, Community Benefits and Sustainability, Northern Gateway Pipeline, Enbridge Inc.
I know that Colleen Hodgson with the Métis Nation B.C. and Karin Hunt, who may still be here, from Prince George Nechako have definitely more expertise in essential skills than I do, but certainly it includes workplace literacy, numeracy. Some folks have never had a job or don't have a culture of observing people in their own families working, so it's that workplace readiness. It's in line with what you're saying, sir, yes.
9:20 a.m.
Vice-President, National Policy, Canadian Manufacturers and Exporters
I'll pick up directly on that. When I mentioned in my remarks what a company told me, that they have an 80% rejection rate of new hires, that's exactly what it is. They're basically unsafe to be working in the work environment. That is primarily language and numeracy skills. It's just not a good place for them to be, on a factory floor in something like what Enbridge is operating in different facilities across the country. It's not a good environment for them to be in.
That's a problem of our...and we're not talking about new entrants to Canada, either. We are talking about people who grew up and were raised in and went through the Canadian education system and don't have the basic skills to be employable. That's a huge problem we have.
On the broader issue of specific examples—if I could just return to that for a second, if I have a minute—there are a number of things that should be done. I've referenced some of the things that we're doing through the LMDA program and other programs across the country to help employers train their staff, but maybe I'll talk about some of the things that I think we should be doing more broadly.
I had the opportunity to go with Minister Kenney on his tour to Germany and the U.K. earlier this year. Looking at the German training system and the way they engage employers and tie employers into the education system was a real eye-opener to me. Canadian employers basically are not allowed to be part of any part of the education system. Except for the polytechnics and a few colleges and universities, employers aren't really part of the education system. In Germany they start in high school having employers directly involved.
We need to change the mindset about corporate Canada's involvement in training. I don't mean the employers themselves getting involved. I mean the institutions and governments letting companies come in and help with training. They're the ones with the expertise. They're the ones who know the future job requirements. We need to stop pretending the government knows better than employers what the future job requirements are going to be.
There has to be a better way to link those together, but it starts with allowing employers to be part of the process, which in most cases, they're not.