Evidence of meeting #32 for Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was benefit.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Clerk of the Committee  Ms. Caroline Bosc
Dominique La Salle  Director General, Seniors and Pensions Policy Secretariat, Department of Employment and Social Development
Marianna Giordano  Director, CPP Policy and Legislation, Department of Employment and Social Development
Heidi Illingworth  Executive Director, Canadian Resource Centre for Victims of Crime
Lenore Lukasik-Foss  President, Ontario Coalition of Rape Crisis Centres; Director, Sexual Assault Centre (Hamilton and Area)

October 21st, 2014 / 11:25 a.m.

Conservative

Scott Armstrong Conservative Cumberland—Colchester—Musquodoboit Valley, NS

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Just in response to my Liberal colleague, there's been plenty of opportunity to change this. It was omitted and it was missed, but it could have been changed. CPP was introduced in 1962, so to my recollection it could have been fixed when Lester Pearson was Prime Minister, when Pierre Elliott Trudeau was Prime Minister, when John Turner was Prime Minister, when John Chretien was Prime Minister, or when Paul Martin was Prime Minister.

Couldn't any government have taken the opportunity to fix this previously? This has been a long-standing omission. It's not just something that's happened since 2005. Am I accurate in saying that?

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

Dave Van Kesteren Conservative Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON

Thank you for the question.

I would agree that's fair to say. Not to be critical of those past governments, because of course they were Conservative governments in the mix there as well, so probably the fairest thing to say is that it was an honest omission and it was something that I think is long overdue, and everybody agrees this is something that must be done.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

Scott Armstrong Conservative Cumberland—Colchester—Musquodoboit Valley, NS

I know I'm pretty proud to be part of a Parliament that's actually going to solve this and make sure there's no unintended consequence of providing benefits to people who truly do not deserve them. I'm very happy we were able to bring this legislation forward. Hopefully we can work together to get these needed amendments passed over the next couple of days and we'll see this bill get royal assent as soon as possible.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

Dave Van Kesteren Conservative Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON

Thank you.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Phil McColeman

Thank you.

Members, we will break.

Thank you, Mr. Van Kesteren, first of all, before you leave the room. If you're staying to hear further comments and debate on this, we thank you for this. We thank you actually for taking this up and making sure we correct this injustice.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

Dave Van Kesteren Conservative Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON

Well, thank you for this opportunity. It's been a delight to me.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Phil McColeman

Thank you so much.

Members, we will break just very briefly while the second group of witnesses arrive at the table.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Phil McColeman

Welcome back.

We're continuing to hear testimony on Bill C-591, and for that we will now be joined by officials from the Department of Employment and Social Development for the next half-hour. We have Mr. Dominique La Salle, director general from the seniors and pensions policy secretariat at ESDC, and Ms. Marianna Giordano, director of CPP policy and legislation.

Now I would like to pass the floor to you for a combined 10 minutes of presentation.

Thank you very much.

11:25 a.m.

Dominique La Salle Director General, Seniors and Pensions Policy Secretariat, Department of Employment and Social Development

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair and distinguished members of the committee.

I am pleased to appear before you today to discuss Bill C-591, An Act to amend the Canada Pension Plan and the Old Age Security Act (pension and benefits), a private member's bill sponsored by Dave Van Kesteren, the member for Chatham-Kent—Essex.

I will also provide information on amendments that will be proposed during the clause-by-clause analysis.

Let me begin by speaking briefly about the two pension programs that would be affected by this bill.

The Canada pension plan, or CPP, is a social insurance plan that provides contributors and their families with modest income replacement upon the retirement, disability or death of a contributor. It is funded by the contributions of employers, employees and self-employed individuals, as well as by returns on CPP investments.

Old age security, or OAS, is the largest federal pension program and is funded from the general tax revenues of the Government of Canada. Together, these programs pay out approximately $85 billion per year to Canadians.

Bill C-591 applies to the survivor benefits of these two programs. This includes three different CPP survivor benefits: the monthly survivor's pension paid to the spouse or common-law partner of the deceased CPP contributor; the monthly children's benefit for dependent children of the deceased contributor; and the lump-sum death benefit, which is usually paid to a deceased contributor's estate.

The bill also affects the OAS program's allowance for the survivor, which is provided to low-income widows or widowers aged 60 to 64. To obtain the CPP and OAS benefits, an individual must apply for them and meet the eligibility requirements.

Bill C-591 has no significant cost implication, as it is generally consistent with existing administrative policy. It will affect a small number of individuals, as murder among family members is rare. In recent years, an average of 48 people were charged annually with spousal murder and an average of 21 individuals in all age categories were accused of killing their parent or step-parent. Not all those charged with murder are convicted of murder, and when there is a conviction there will frequently be no possibility of the murderer collecting the survivor benefit due to the eligibility criteria.

Let me outline the key reasons why these requirements may not be met.

Spousal homicides tend to occur among younger individuals. The number of victims is highest among those aged 15 to 34, with the number falling with age according to Statistics Canada. As a result, the deceased may not have contributed for enough years to the CPP to generate survivor benefits. It is also important to know that nearly 60% of those accused of killing their parents between 2003 and 2012 were over the age of 25 and therefore ineligible for the CPP orphan benefit. Finally, many people who murder their spouse will not meet the eligibility criteria for the OAS allowance for the survivor.

For such reasons, we estimate that as currently written, Bill C-591 would potentially affect a maximum of 30 individuals per year, and some of these people will never apply for the benefit. This is in the context of a public pension system in which the CPP and the OAS each pay benefits to more than 5 million people every year.

I will now provide you with a quick overview of how the bill would work.

A person who has been charged with the murder of a spouse, common-law partner or parent would still be eligible to receive survivor benefits under the principle of being innocent until proven guilty. When the department learns that such an individual has been convicted of murder, this person would be disqualified from receiving further survivor benefits and steps would be taken to recover the benefits already paid, which would become a debt to the Crown. If this individual were subsequently to be found innocent on appeal, the full value of their benefit would be reinstated.

The bill would not remove eligibility for the orphan benefits when minor children are convicted of murdering a parent, because children under the age of 18 don't receive the benefit directly; it is the parent or guardian who receives it on the child's behalf, and the benefit helps cover the costs of caring for the child. Bill C-591 avoids creating a situation in which the department would demand repayment from a grieving widow whose child has just been convicted of murdering her husband. This would amount to punishing the victim. Children over the age of 18, however, receive the orphan benefit directly and would be ineligible to do so if convicted of murdering a parent.

Technical amendments will be proposed to ensure that the bill applies consistently to the OAS allowance for the survivor; that the minister will be able to render individuals ineligible for the CPP death benefit; and that the eligibility for non-guilty individuals is protected. The objective of these proposed minor amendments is simply to prevent the bill from having unintended results that would undermine its effectiveness.

More substantively, amendments will be proposed to include in the bill conviction for manslaughter alongside first- and second-degree murder convictions. Manslaughter is considered unintended homicide, although there may be intent to cause harm.

Manslaughter covers a wide spectrum of cases, ranging from near accidents to near murders. The department's existing administrative policy does not apply to manslaughter convictions. The reason is that the courts have indicated that the principle of ex turpi causa—one should not benefit from his crime—should not be automatically applied to offences such as manslaughter without examining the specific circumstances of each case. ESDC officials—our department—are not qualified to make such determinations, so the administrative policy was limited to murder convictions, to which the principle of ex turpi causa always applies.

Although manslaughter indicates a lesser degree of moral culpability than murder, manslaughter convictions do require criminal intent and reasonable foreseeability of a serious risk of bodily harm. The wide range of manslaughter cases, however, raises the possibility that there will be exceptional cases in which the removal of survivor benefits would be inappropriate. For this reason, the amendment being proposed by the government would allow eligibility for survivor benefits to be retained in those rare instances in which the circumstances surrounding the offence cause the courts to give a suspended sentence to an individual convicted of manslaughter. Suspended sentences show limited intent or significant mitigating circumstances.

If Bill C-591 is amended to remove eligibility for survivor benefits in cases of manslaughter, there will be no significant cost implications for the plan. Approximately two more individuals per year would be affected, on average, for a total of fewer than 32 each year. There would be an initial surge above that number, as the proposed amendment would apply retroactively.

In summary, the government will propose some technical amendments to better reflect the intent of Bill C-591. It will also propose amendments to remove eligibility for OAS and CPP survivor benefits for individuals convicted of manslaughter.

At the same time, the amendments would recognize that there are likely to be a small number of manslaughter cases in which eligibility for these benefits should be retained due to the extraordinary circumstances of the crime.

Let me conclude by thanking you once again for this opportunity to contribute to your study of the bill.

11:40 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Phil McColeman

Thank you, Mr. La Salle.

Ms. Giordano, if you have anything to add to the comments, please proceed.

11:40 a.m.

Marianna Giordano Director, CPP Policy and Legislation, Department of Employment and Social Development

No, I have no comments on that.

I can answer any questions.

11:40 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Phil McColeman

Okay.

We'll begin our first round of questioning with Madam Sims.

11:40 a.m.

NDP

Jinny Sims NDP Newton—North Delta, BC

Thank you very much.

I want to thank our guests for their presentation. It was very well laid out and very thorough. As I said earlier, we're not opposing this legislation. We welcome the fact that it's here.

Chair, at this time I would like to give a notice of motion. There are printed copies already.

11:40 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Phil McColeman

You have already given notice. Are you moving the motion at this point in the proceeding?

11:40 a.m.

NDP

Jinny Sims NDP Newton—North Delta, BC

I am moving it, yes.

11:40 a.m.

NDP

Jinny Sims NDP Newton—North Delta, BC

It's because we agree with whatever is happening here.

11:40 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Phil McColeman

Okay. You have the floor.

11:40 a.m.

NDP

Jinny Sims NDP Newton—North Delta, BC

My motion is as follows:That the Committee invite Dignity for All to present its findings from its Poverty Elimination Plan; the plan builds on this committee's November 2010 report called, “Federal Poverty Reduction Plan: Working in Partnership towards Reducing Poverty in Canada.”

Chair, 25 years ago there was an all-party resolution to take action on this. This group is very, very keen to come and make a presentation to us. As through a committee motion, we've limited it so that we're only meeting to discuss legislation. I'm here to plead that we have a meeting extraordinaire to hear from this group.

11:40 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Phil McColeman

Mr. Armstrong.

11:40 a.m.

Conservative

Scott Armstrong Conservative Cumberland—Colchester—Musquodoboit Valley, NS

I'd like to move that we go in camera, please.

11:40 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Phil McColeman

We have a motion on the floor to go in camera. We'll vote on that motion to go in camera.

11:40 a.m.

NDP

Jinny Sims NDP Newton—North Delta, BC

I'd like a recorded vote, please.

(Motion agreed to: yeas 5; nays 4)

11:40 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Phil McColeman

As the yeas have it, we will move in camera.

[Proceedings continue in camera]

[Public proceedings resume]

11:40 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Phil McColeman

Welcome back to the regular meeting to consider Bill C-591. We'll carry on now with questions for our witnesses.

Mr. Mayes.

11:40 a.m.

Conservative

Colin Mayes Conservative Okanagan—Shuswap, BC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

And thank you to the witnesses for being here today.

I have some questions about the CPP. We know the survivor benefits of the OAS, but OAS is taxpayer-supported whereas CPP is actually supported by employers and employees.

I was reading a couple of days ago about income splitting in the United States. The reason they have income splitting in the United States is that there was a court case that determined there was a mutual benefit in a marriage or a union, such that one of the two partners of that union would benefit by a common or mutual benefit of the two.

So I guess the question is this. With respect to CPP, could there be any challenge to the right of benefit because it's been paid for by the person? How would you say it? It doesn't really belong to the taxpayers or the government. It's actually a benefit that has been prepaid by an individual. So it would be more in a case where one spouse murdered the other, but could that spouse challenge the fact that she or he had a right of benefit? Could that be challenged under the charter?