Evidence of meeting #44 for Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was finance.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Bruce Dewar  President and Chief Executive Officer, LIFT Philanthropy Partners
Stephen Huddart  President and Chief Executive Officer, The J.W. McConnell Family Foundation
Wayne Chiu  Chief Executive Officer, The Trico Group
Cathy Taylor  Executive Director, Ontario Nonprofit Network
Michael Toye  Executive Director, Canadian Community Economic Development Network
Oster  President, Ottawa Community Loan Fund
Jacques Charest  President, CAP Finance, Le Réseau de la finance solidaire et responsable

4:20 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, The J.W. McConnell Family Foundation

Stephen Huddart

Yes, that is correct.

There are some very clear recommendations coming from England and the United States about how to do that. We have some other ideas; as Mr. Chiu noted, the OECD has some suggestions as well.

4:20 p.m.

NDP

Sadia Groguhé NDP Saint-Lambert, QC

Okay.

Let me go back to the proposals of the OECD and the other countries.

What choices have they made regarding the regulatory framework they apply to social finance? Could you provide us with examples to give us an idea of what works with that framework?

4:20 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, The J.W. McConnell Family Foundation

Stephen Huddart

Yes. I will begin that answer, and then invite Mr. Chiu to speak.

The key point is to allow a corporate vehicle to exist which is a hybrid, for-profit and not-for-profit corporation, and which can have share capital, but has a social purpose. That's one recommendation that has been put in place in several countries. Indeed, even in Canada, in Nova Scotia and British Columbia, we have this type of corporation that is able to attract capital for a social purpose. That would be one example. We could certainly mention many others, but I don't want to take up too much time here.

4:20 p.m.

NDP

Sadia Groguhé NDP Saint-Lambert, QC

Mr. Chiu, I don't have a lot of time left, but I would like to hear what you have to say about the measurement of results. You stated that the government could be—

4:20 p.m.

Chief Executive Officer, The Trico Group

Wayne Chiu

I think that measuring—

4:20 p.m.

NDP

Sadia Groguhé NDP Saint-Lambert, QC

You stated that—

4:20 p.m.

Chief Executive Officer, The Trico Group

Wayne Chiu

I think, at the end...

4:20 p.m.

NDP

Sadia Groguhé NDP Saint-Lambert, QC

Excuse me, but do you understand my question in French?

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Phil McColeman

Mr. Chiu, I think Mme. Groguhé began a second question after—

4:20 p.m.

NDP

Sadia Groguhé NDP Saint-Lambert, QC

Yes.

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Phil McColeman

—the one that Mr. Huddart responded to. She was in the midst of asking you her second question. I think we'll go back to Mme. Groguhé.

Paraphrase as much as you can. I'll give you a bit of extra time, and then have Mr. Chiu respond.

4:20 p.m.

NDP

Sadia Groguhé NDP Saint-Lambert, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Chiu, I would like to go back to the issue of measurement of results.

You mentioned that the government could be a leader in this area. What did you mean by that? How do you see the measurement of results?

4:25 p.m.

Chief Executive Officer, The Trico Group

Wayne Chiu

When we talk about measuring results, when I look at...

Going back to industry—

4:25 p.m.

NDP

Sadia Groguhé NDP Saint-Lambert, QC

Yes.

4:25 p.m.

Chief Executive Officer, The Trico Group

Wayne Chiu

—there's a result called CSA, Canadian Standards Association. When we are building things, when we are doing things, there are always standards to be followed. You have to follow the CSA standards before you can do this or that. Right now, what Canada has is really a lack of measurement. Organizations can say that this is the way they measure their impact. But the key thing is whether the government is able to step in and look at this.

We do have a standard of measuring the impact: “This is A, B, and C.“ If we are able to follow that kind of impact without the involvement of the federal government, it is easier for the organization. With a not-for-profit, or social entrepreneur, or even big corporations, when they do a lot of CSA, they have something to follow. The impact created by the federal government is that we are able to follow and to be measured by a certain standard board. If the federal government is able to create some sort of national measurement, it would be a win for the not-for-profits, for public social entrepreneurs, and also for corporations.

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Phil McColeman

Thank you.

Colleagues, we're quickly running out of time. I have one more time slot here, but I'm going to use my prerogative to ask a couple of questions myself. We'll move that questioner to the next round after we get the next panel in.

As a former builder, I too am very interested to explore the ideas that have been put on the table by Mr. Huddart and Mr. Chiu.

Mr. Huddart, would you clarify something for us? You gave an example where you were in a project, you had funded the project, and certain outcomes were expected from the project. You then found out the government was running a more-or-less parallel fund—that's what I took from your comments—with a much greater amount of money, and the outcomes were far less per unit by the sound of what you were telling us.

Did I interpret your comments correctly?

4:25 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, The J.W. McConnell Family Foundation

Stephen Huddart

Yes, that's more or less correct, sir.

I would highlight it really as an opportunity for collaboration. If the government's purpose is to support home building on reserves in a responsible way, then having some kind of clearing house or a place to connect these efforts would be a good idea.

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Phil McColeman

You also mentioned Quest University in your earlier presentation. I have to be honest; I haven't heard of Quest University. Where is it located? Could you provide just a very concise description of this institution?

4:25 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, The J.W. McConnell Family Foundation

Stephen Huddart

Certainly. It's located in Squamish, British Columbia, between Vancouver and Whistler. It's a private university established by a former president of UBC, David Strangway.

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Phil McColeman

Have you any idea how many students it has?

4:25 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, The J.W. McConnell Family Foundation

Stephen Huddart

I don't recall exactly. It's a small university, but quite well respected, internationally renowned, and attracting a very high quality of student and faculty.

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Phil McColeman

Thank you for that.

Thank you, witnesses. This was an excellent time to listen to you, to gain your understanding of social finance and the impact it can have. I appreciate your taking the time to be with us. Please accept the thanks of our committee.

Committee members, we'll break for a few moments while we bring in our next group of witnesses, and then we'll resume.

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Phil McColeman

Welcome back, ladies and gentlemen.

We have just been informed that we have votes to get to at 5:30. We're arranging for the transportation to be in front of the building right at 5:15 so we can get to it immediately and it won't be an issue for us to get to the House of Commons. That being said, the timing of these presentations will obviously be affected and questioning will be even more so.

Unless the committee objects, I'm going to give the presenters their time to present, because they've come to present. We'll get in as many rounds of questions as we can, and maybe even shorten those to three minutes or one question per member in order to get through them most effectively.

Just before I do that, I was hoping to do this at the end. Colleagues, as you probably know, our parliamentary secretary, Scott Armstrong, lost his father last week. That's why Scott isn't here and Mr. Goguen is here on his behalf. I'd like to say to you that obviously our sympathies are with Scott and his family at this time. If you choose to send him a note and you need his coordinates, please get them through me so you can express your feelings to him.

Welcome back, ladies and gentlemen.

We're here to continue our study on exploring the potential of social finance.

Joining us now we have Ms. Cathy Taylor, the executive director of the Ontario Nonprofit Network.

We also have Mr. Michael Toye, the executive director of the Canadian Community Economic Development Network.

Splitting his time with Mr. Toye we have Mr. Michael Oster, the president of the Ottawa Community Loan Fund.

Finally, we have Mr. Jacques Charest, the president of CAP Finance.

Ms. Taylor, why don't you start? You have up to ten minutes.

4:35 p.m.

Cathy Taylor Executive Director, Ontario Nonprofit Network

Thank you so much for inviting me to speak with you today.

My name is Cathy Taylor. I'm the executive director of the Ontario Nonprofit Network, based in Toronto. We're a network of 55,000 non-profits and charities in the province of Ontario, which are in everything from faith communities, sports and recreation, theatre groups, arts and culture, social services, health, and across the spectrum of the non-profit sector.

My remarks today will be from the lens of the not-for-profit sector, not from the investment perspective.

You may know that across Canada we have what we call the core non-profit sector—that excludes municipalities, universities, school boards, and hospitals. We're really big business. We generate $35.6 billion, or 2.6% of Canada's GDP, and are one of the fastest growing sectors of the economy, with an annual growth rate of 7%. In fact, since 2008 we were one of the only industries in Canada that was growing at that rate.

Contrary to common perception, 61.5% of the core non-profit sector's revenue comes from earned income and the sale of goods and services, not from government and not from other charitable activities; of that, 15% is through membership fees. Transfers from all three levels of government comprise only 19.7% of the revenue of non-profits and charities. I think that's an important distinction when we talk about social finance and social enterprise.

The public benefits sector in Canada—we often speak of non-profits as providing a public benefit—is not waiting for a handout from government or from philanthropy. In fact, it's just the opposite: the non-profit sector comprises independent organizations that make a significant economic contribution while pursuing their social missions. In a recent survey in Ontario, 88% of social enterprises were operating as non-profit organizations, and an additional 4% were for-profit corporations wholly owned by their non-profit. So when we talk about social enterprise and social finance, we're primarily talking about the corporate structure of the non-profit sector.

Social enterprises heavily reinvest back into their communities because they employ people, often with vulnerabilities and disabilities, and they create public services within their communities. The focus of the non-profit and charitable sector is this commitment to building strong, resilient, and inclusive communities that provide a social good, as opposed to increasing private wealth.

Social enterprise is a powerful force that can be used in local communities. We feel very strongly that the federal government has a role in creating an enabling environment for social finance and social enterprise, which have the potential to address growing inequality in communities and to play a major role in building community assets and resilience. We certainly applaud you for taking this opportunity to discuss this.

We'd like to make the following recommendations for you to consider today.

First would be to focus your work and effort on creating that enabling environment for social finance, and specifically social enterprise that builds on the trust the public has for the non-profit sector, which is one of the highest trust levels of any sector in Canada. To that end we believe that all social enterprises, regardless of their corporate form or source of revenue, should have a public purpose and a mission, should be operated for the public good not personal gain, should reinvest their excess revenue in their public mission, and retain their assets in the public domain for the public good.

Part of that enabling framework that we think the federal government has a role and responsibility to play is determining what that definition of social enterprise is. And there's an opportunity to align with our provincial governments.

Second, we would encourage you to wait and see, around the concept of a dual purpose or hybrid corporate legislation at this time. There's so much else that will provide more return for the time invested. We have new corporate legislation for the non-profit sector at the federal level. Many provincial governments are adopting new legislation for their non-profit sector at the provincial level. Quite frankly, the last thing we need right now is another piece of legislation to try to figure out what that dual purpose or hybrid piece looks like.

We know that B.C. and Nova Scotia have developed dual purpose legislation. We have only a few examples of organizations that have used it, and we need to see how it's working and not be the first to put another piece of legislation in place. We already have fairly flexible business corporate legislation; we need to see how it will evolve.

Third, we urge you to reform and reinterpret the Income Tax Act as it relates to non-profit corporations, especially those providing a public benefit, to allow them to be sustainable and grow their revenue. Current interpretation of the Income Tax Act prevents non-profit organizations from generating revenue—not creating profit, but generating revenue that they can put back into their mission as part of their organization—as well as maintaining cash reserves.

As you know, any business needs to have cash reserves if it is operating an organization. It is impossible to operate an organization with this kind of limitation, and even more impossible to operate a social enterprise with the goal of being accessible and inclusive without these tools in place. Revenue that is reinvested in the mission of the organization is not profit. Non-profit and charitable regulation is out of step with what is happening on the ground and desperately needs modernization.

Fourth, don't exclude non-profit organizations from business support programs, and treat social enterprises operating as non-profit and charitable organizations as small and medium-sized enterprises in the programs you have already available. They need access to the same funding and business supports as are available to the private sector. There are many government programs that offer supports and capital to small and medium-sized businesses. Free those up to also be accessible by non-profit organizations that are operating a social enterprise. This is a fairly straightforward thing that can happen in a very short period of time and that doesn't involve any new resources.

Currently, non-profits are often actively excluded and ineligible for research and development funding or start-up funding in business planning supports that are available to small and medium-sized enterprises. Often, what we're hearing on the ground is that they start as for-profit corporations to get those start-up resources, and then they transition to a non-profit once they are established.

Fifth, social enterprises need debt financing that is creative and responsive to their needs. Some of the earlier speakers spoke of certain tools out there, such as “slow money”, wherein a grace period between loan interest and repayment is expected, or long-term low interest rates for things such as social housing and capital projects and unsecured operating funding for social enterprises, such as lines of credit for cash flows.

I don't think we're necessarily always talking about complex social finance tools that need to be in place. On some level, the majority of the non-profit and charitable sector are small to medium-sized organizations, and they require some of the basic financial tools that are not currently available to our sector. Lenders are typically not familiar with the non-profit or social enterprise model and shy away, even though it's a much less risky investment for them. Government can play a role with respect to freeing up those institutions to provide these types of supports.

Social enterprises often take considerable time to become profitable, as they are filling a void that has typically not been filled by private business because there hasn't been a profit margin. For the sector to be able to provide that service with the expectation that there should suddenly be a profit margin isn't the right expectation. Help us figure out how we can provide the service at cost, which is what our role is.

The final recommendation is to develop a social procurement action plan for the government that encourages companies obtaining government contracts to engage social enterprises as part of their work. Leverage the purchasing power that government has to strengthen communities. Scotland, we know, is a leader in this regard, and there are many other examples of how this has been done around the world.

Thank you very much for receiving our ideas on strengthening social finance and social enterprise. We have a blueprint for supporting social enterprise in Ontario, which we're happy to share, and we're looking forward to your questions.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Phil McColeman

Thank you very much.

Mr. Toye.