Evidence of meeting #52 for Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was investment.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Kieron Boyle  Head, Social Investment and Finance, Government of the United Kingdom
Andy Broderick  Vice-President, Community Investment, Resilient Capital, Vancity Credit Union
Adam Spence  Founder and Chief Executive Officer, SVX

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Phil McColeman

Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen.

Welcome to meeting number 52 of the Standing Committee on Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities.

Just before we begin this meeting, which is carrying on with our current study, I'd like to introduce a gentleman who is here in support today. He's sitting at the back of the room. His name is Mr. Gilbert Dionne. Mr. Dionne is here, as was mentioned in our prior meeting, to support any of the community members who choose to use the paperless SharePlus system on your iPad. That has become an option. Mr. Dionne is here, and if you require assistance throughout the meeting or at any time, please indicate that to me, and we'll have Mr. Dionne notified. He'll move towards your position and he will assist you with whatever question you may have.

As I mentioned, we're here continuing with our current study exploring the potential of social finance in Canada. We have two witness panels today.

As we've heard many times throughout the course of our study, the United Kingdom has emerged as a world leader in social innovation and social finance. We're very pleased to have with us for the first hour, joined by way of video conference and representing the government of the United Kingdom, Mr. Kieron Boyle.

Mr. Boyle has a lengthy resumé working across the United Kingdom in government, but he joins us today as the head of social investment and finance at the U.K. Cabinet Office.

Welcome, sir. You will be presenting to us. Because you are our single witness here, I'm going to allow a lot of latitude and allow you to take as much time as is reasonable to present. We normally allow our witnesses 10 minutes, but certainly you're welcome to go over the 10 minutes if you wish. If you choose to do that, maybe I'll give you a signal when you're around 15 minutes, and we'll cut it off at that point.

Is that acceptable?

3:30 p.m.

Kieron Boyle Head, Social Investment and Finance, Government of the United Kingdom

Yes.

Thank you.

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Phil McColeman

Okay.

Please proceed with your presentation, and then we'll move on to the committee members posing questions to you.

3:30 p.m.

Head, Social Investment and Finance, Government of the United Kingdom

Kieron Boyle

Thank you for the opportunity to have this discussion today. It's a real pleasure to be able to do so. Certainly the governments of the U.K. and Canada work closely together on many issues, social investment and social finance not least amongst them.

My name is Kieron. I am a civil servant. I work in the Cabinet Office, so our Office of the Prime Minister.

You'll excuse me for being a bit confused about what tense to speak in, at the moment, on the basis that we are in an election period in the U.K. We have a government; we don't have a Parliament. What I'll be speaking to is the broader policy sense of what has happened over the past 15 years or so within the U.K., rather than within any particular political government or specific political party.

The caveat over, there are a few things I'm hoping to cover today. I also really look forward to the discussion. There are three points I want to cover through the course of this presentation.

The first is narratives—how narratives have been a very strong part of the U.K. experience of social finance, and what narratives have been deployed by a variety of political parties and governments in support of this agenda.

The second is to pull out the U.K. perspective. I've sat on the social impact investment task force set up under the auspices of the G-8, and we've seen across the G-8 countries the important role of policy. I'll pull out some of the distinct policy developments in the U.K. that I think have been quite important for the development of this field.

I'll finish with a perspective on how, as a government, respective governments have tried within the U.K. to use the field of social finance to improve public services and services to the public within the U.K.

I'll give myself the challenge of doing all that in under 10 minutes, but do please let me know if I've gone way over.

A crucial point, I guess, is to talk about definitions. Definitions are everything here. Essentially, within the U.K. there seems to be two broad definitions that sit around the world of social finance. The first one seems to be social finance being about repayable capital that helps social organizations increase their impact. That's very much from the investee's perspective. There's a broader one that we used in the G-8 task force that was talking about social investment being investment that intentionally seeks and measures financial returns and social returns.

I think they're both right. It just pulls out the fact that there's a breadth to this. So much of this field depends on where you sit.

I said that narratives were important, so perhaps I could just give a sense of how this field has developed within the U.K. over the past 15 years. The field has developed out of a strong history and a strong sense of political support for the social economy and social sector organizations. That's really where this field has grown from. It has grown from a sense that as we look at the sorts of policy challenges that face governments in the U.K. and, I would argue, most developed countries, we have challenges where, when we look at demographics and we look at the types of social problems, they are complex, they are costly, and they are deeply interconnected. There's a question of whether public services, and particularly public services provided by the state or by a large government service, can actually be effective in tackling a number of those. There's been a particular and sustained interest in the role of social sector organizations within the U.K. in helping government tackle some of those challenges.

One challenge we've seen in the U.K. is that when you speak to a number of these social sector organizations about what will help them be more successful, or what some of the biggest barriers are that they face, they have historically said that it's access to finance. Now, some of that is reported. It might not be the biggest barrier, but certainly for a lot of organizations they feel it's the big barrier that they're trying to tackle.

I give that long story to say that this is how the field in the U.K. grew. It grew out of trying to tackle essentially the finance gap that exists for social sector organizations that trade and use businesslike approaches to tackle social problems. I think over the course of this discussion, we'll probably pull out that the field around the world is much broader than that. I think the field around the world is increasingly looking more agnostic about the types of organizations that are achieving social impact and looking at the role of finance in helping a broader range of organizations have a social impact. But within the U.K. this very much grew out of supporting finance into civil society or the third sector.

I said that the role of policy has been important. Within the U.K. there's been at least 15 years of sustained focus on how we can support the emergence of social finance and how social finance can be effective in supporting social sector organizations. I point out that it has existed across political parties. So the majority of the work that was started around support for social investment was started by the Labour government under Tony Blair and picked up and accelerated by Gordon Brown. Then our recent coalition government, headed by Prime Minister David Cameron, essentially carried on a lot of the work, and I'll pull out the bits in particular that were carried out. But that is to say that there has been a sustained focus on this that has, among other things, allowed people like me, grey bureaucrats and policy-makers, to really look at and see and learn from what has been tried in the past, what worked from that and what didn't work, and how we should shape public policy as a result.

I won't go into a great deal of detail on all the policy interventions, but essentially there's a framework that we have used over the past six or seven years to think about how government can support the growth of the social investment market. That framework has three elements. The first has been about how we can attract capital into this market. How can you crowd in socially intended capital? The second barrier has been how you build demand for that capital. Put crudely, how do you grow the pipeline of organizations that are looking to take on investment to help them increase their social impact? The third area is how you connect the two. How do you build an enabling environment for social investment to take place?

I'll just very quickly go through some of what I feel are important developments within the U.K. On the supply side, a large initiative has been the development of an organization called Big Society Capital. Perhaps we can go into them in some detail later. Big Society Capital is a wholesale social investment fund, which we colloquially refer to as a social investment bank but really it's a wholesale fund. It is capitalized with dormant bank accounts that have been set up to cornerstone a lot of investments into the market.

We have also focused on the role of government subsidy in other ways, in particular tax relief and the role of tax relief in supporting social investment. Last year the coalition government launched a social investment tax relief, which I can go into more detail, but essentially it's trying to attract more private investors into smaller high-growth social ventures.

Then we've also been exploring—just to pull it out as it might be an area to discuss later—some of the ways in which alternative finance can support the social investment market. There's been a lot of work exploring the role of crowdfunding and peer-to-peer financing, and how that can support crowding in capital into a market.

The demand side is a more crucial area from my perspective in terms of the distinct role government can play, we focus a lot on capacity building, specifically to enable organizations to take on investment. Two recent programs that we trialled within the U.K. were part of a broader investment readiness program. The first one focused on larger organizations. This was called our investment and contract readiness fund, a pilot program of £15 million. Essentially that focused on organizations that had been trading for a while but needed some ground support to build up the sorts of business models or financial planning or back-office capabilities that would enable an investor to place money into them. For that pilot every £1 of government grant we put in succeeded in unlocking over £27 of private investment, which if nothing else has made it—and I've checked—the most successful U.K. business support program out there.

We also focused on earlier-stage social ventures, and backed by the Cabinet Office, a number of social incubators, essentially business accelerators that were typically combining public money and then private money, often from large corporates, and putting that into accelerated programs for very early-stage organizations that were looking to have a social impact. I can talk about how, very recently, the U.K. government set up a new foundation to try to build in some of that capacity building for the long term as a sister organization to Big Society Capital.

Also, on the demand side, we focused quite a lot on how we can open up public markets for social enterprises to deliver within. I won't get into a lot of detail on social impact bonds now, but that's essentially where they sit. I will go into some detail on an act in the U.K. called the Social Value Act. It's a very important development, in my opinion. The Social Value Act essentially said to commissioners of services within the U.K. that they have to consider the social value of a service when commissioning it, beyond, for example, just pure economic or short-term cost issues, the idea being that for many commissioners thinking about value in the round, this often means they're getting better value for money than just a very short-term focus on the cost of a service when commissioning it. We feel that things like that are just as important as these initiatives around crowding in finance.

Just very quickly, on the broader environment, I'm always kicked for saying this. It's the boring but important stuff typically. It's looking at very complicated questions such as fiduciary duty, such as the responsibilities of trustees, be they foundation trustees or pension fund trustees, and on what basis they are allowed to invest, and what things they can think about other than pure financial returns. Put very crudely, there are some complexities within the U.K. system, and I know from some experience in speaking to Canadian colleagues that some are replicated within Canada.

Just to give a U.K. example, there's a complexity that I can walk out of this room now, I can be accosted on the street by a charity asking me to give £10 to them. That's great, we can both do that. If they ask me to invest £10 with them, technically we could both be arrested then and there. The reason is that when I'm investing £10, this has stepped into a different realm of public policy and a different realm of regulation. It's the regulation on investments, where essentially punters like me are protected against certain levels of risk. But this is a complex world. If I'm willing to give my £10 to a charity, what risk am I being protected against, given that £10 is a 100% risk investment? So it's those sorts of issues that we're trying to get into.

Finally, one of the things that we noticed from the U.K. was that countries around the world are all looking at these sorts of issues. There's a lot for us to learn from one another. That was essentially behind David Cameron's intent to put social investment on the G-8 agenda, under the auspices of the G-8 to set up a social impact investment task force, essentially just to observe what is happening in each country in this field so that we can share best practices and learn from one another.

I said I'd finish with a third point, and I'm getting very close to my 10 minutes here. The third point is that the U.K. experience has predominantly been around how you build a social investment market from a public policy perspective. We're now increasingly looking at how we as government work with, alongside, and through that social investment market, with and alongside true social enterprises.

One of the areas that brings us to is social impact bonds, or as I like to refer to them, social investment partnerships. Essentially, what are the opportunities where social investment can enable us to think about delivery of services to the public differently, enable us to innovate, at times enable us to attack issues through early intervention, rather than dealing with downstream consequences? Perhaps we can move into that in time and in discussion.

Hopefully, that's given a broad sense that within the U.K. this narrative has grown out of supporting the social sector, but it is now, I think, a much larger perspective on how social investment and the social economy are a large part of our economy as a whole. We focus in terms of policy on crowding in socially intended capital, building demand for it, and thinking about the enabling environment. Now it feels to us like an increasingly urgent challenge for governments: how do you work with and alongside these markets to deliver better services to the public?

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Phil McColeman

Thank you very much for that information. I was trying to keep up with you on my note-taking. I think I got some of the salient points down that you made, but my sense of it is that it's very broad and deep in terms of the amount of knowledge that you've gained through this, and also by going forward with it.

Now we'll move on to questioning by our committee members who are assembled around the table. The first round will be seven-minute rounds today, and we will start with Madam Sims.

3:45 p.m.

NDP

Jinny Sims NDP Newton—North Delta, BC

Thank you for your very insightful presentation.

This afternoon we will be having credit unions in Canada presenting to us. They have sent a written recommendation ahead to members of the committee. They're asking for a new legal structure for social enterprise to be developed under the current Canadian Business Corporations Act.

Do you have any such legal framework for social finance initiatives, and can you speak a little bit more about it if you do?

Let me add just one other thing and that way you can do both of them together. Maybe you could also speak to any regular trade or tax changes that have been useful in your experience with social finance initiatives.

3:50 p.m.

Head, Social Investment and Finance, Government of the United Kingdom

Kieron Boyle

Thank you, Madam Sims. I'm just capturing that. It's a brilliant question and a deep and complicated question in the U.K.

There is no single social enterprise legal form within the U.K. There are different types of forms that social sector organizations take. Crudely, there is a family. There are charity forms—and some charities trade and some charities don't—and then there are a series of forms such as member-owned societies, so co-ops, and industrial and provident societies.

Ten years ago in the U.K., a new legal form called the community interest company was developed. Essentially it was a response to the idea that a charity form—and charities within the U.K. are not allowed to issue equity—was too restrictive for some organizations that wanted to achieve social impact.

This is a regulated form. There is a community interest company regulator that essentially checks that community interest is being achieved by this form, but essentially the form itself is asset-locked. Typically it has been used, for example, when a public asset has been transferred to an organization—it might be a church hall, for example, or a school hall—and the idea behind it is that it's asset-constrained.

There is a very interesting question within the U.K. at the moment. We're starting to see that many businesses that are trying to achieve social impact are not choosing to take the form of charity, co-op, or community interest company. The reason is that these are all asset-constrained organizations. All of them have limitations on the equity they can release.

Some entrepreneurs are saying that puts too great a burden on them. They feel that they lack access to the same sorts of markets that can help commercial organizations scale and grow. We're starting to see a much more mixed economy within the U.K. Some organizations feel it's important to be able to say that they have certain mission locks and that those mission locks are about their assets essentially being locked. They have constraints, for example, on their profits and their dividends.

Some are saying that it's less important for them to be able to communicate or to be held by those mission locks. Still, they want to achieve social impact. For example, they're looking at things such as writing, within their articles of association, a strong social mission.

I think from a policy-maker's perspective, within the U.K. we feel that all of these areas have pros and cons, and in a way the policy-maker's challenge is to think about how clear the signalling between them is so that people can move from whatever and can set up the right sort of organization for the impact they're trying to have.

Just very quickly on the tax side, the majority of the tax benefits that we've advantaged to this area within the U.K. have actually been about replicating within the social sector the same sorts of tax reliefs that work for purely commercial organizations. For example, our social investment tax relief is modelled on an equity release scheme that applies to small, high-growth potential commercial businesses. It's an equity release scheme so, for example, it doesn't work for our charities that are not allowed to release equity. Therefore, we've made almost exactly the same tax relief but it works on debt.

Part of the reason we did that and modelled it so similarly was the result of design work we did with independent financial advisers who told us that they would find it easiest to talk about this tax relief if it looked very similar to whatever else was out there. In a way, anticipation of public take-up has guided how the coalition government has designed the tax relief at its base.

3:50 p.m.

NDP

Jinny Sims NDP Newton—North Delta, BC

Thank you.

This morning Dr. Marjorie Cohen, an economics professor at Simon Fraser University, spoke on CBC radio before giving a keynote at breakfast here on Parliament Hill called “Austerity to Prosperity”, something I know England knows a lot about, having lived through austerity measures there for many years myself. I was there during the Margaret Thatcher years. That's why I left and came to Canada.

She noted that Canada ranks behind other rich countries in its spending on social programs. Surprisingly, she said we even rank behind the United States in this category.

The concern I have is this. Is this going to be used or is this the government conceding that they have a limited responsibility in mitigating and improving social problems when we try to push more towards these kinds of projects? What have you got to say, and how has this played out in the U.K.?

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Phil McColeman

I must tell you, Kieron, that you'd have to do that in about 15 seconds. I know that's going to be difficult to do, so I'll ask Madam Sims if she'll yield the remaining 15 seconds to the next questioner. Maybe you will be able to address some of the issues in further discussions. As we go around the table, perhaps it could be handled that way.

Also, there's always the option that, at the end of our meeting today, you could submit to us, if you so choose, information to elaborate further on any of the questions or any of the conversations we're having today.

We'll handle it in that fashion because I need to be fair here with time allocation.

Now we move to Mr. Eglinski for seven minutes.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Jim Eglinski Conservative Yellowhead, AB

Thank you.

My question is very similar.

Here in Canada proponents of social finance, typically those on the left, fear that this will give the private sector too much influence and will ultimately be a method for the government to decrease spending on social finance programs. As a result of social finance, has the U.K. government completely handed over responsibility for social programs to the private and not-for-profit sectors?

3:55 p.m.

Head, Social Investment and Finance, Government of the United Kingdom

Kieron Boyle

It's a very similar question, and a very live question within the U.K., Mr. Eglinski.

I will be careful here. I'm a civil servant, so obviously I can't speak for different political parties' philosophies in this area, but perhaps I can speak about how the debate has gone within the U.K.

The debate's essentially been about whether this is about a replacement of the role of the state or about the state essentially allowing itself access to different methods and ways of working that mean, with the same intent, its having more impact.

Certainly those who are proponents of it within the U.K. speak about the latter, and will speak, not about government ceding responsibility, but rather government saying, “Our responsibility is often to set the outcomes we would like to see, but we would like a rich diversity of organizations delivering against that.”

Those who challenge that have said, firstly, “Is that true?” Secondly, they have questioned how effectively these markets are working in particular, although within the U.K., both on the left and the right, I think there is a strong degree of support for outsourcing to the social sector. Some on the left have questioned whether these sorts of models of outsourcing are truly getting through to the social sector or are being captured by large commercial firms, often, they would argue, to the disbenefit of the most vulnerable.

Those are some of the policy challenges that people like me look at. Certainly the narrative around social finance has been that it might be a way of addressing some of those risks of outsourcing, but it would be fair to say that within the U.K. there's still a very live and active debate on that.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Jim Eglinski Conservative Yellowhead, AB

Thank you.

Having been through the implementation phase, is there any advice or are there recommendations you can provide as the Canadian government explores implementing similar programs?

3:55 p.m.

Head, Social Investment and Finance, Government of the United Kingdom

Kieron Boyle

There is, and obviously it depends on the programs. I think I would pull out two in particular, though, Mr. Eglinski.

The first is that, over at least the past 15 to 20 years within the U.K., we have increasingly begun to look, from a public policy perspective, at how government can set up specialist and expert organizations to play a role within this market. So for example, we moved from government providing large direct investment funds to government setting up a social investment wholesaler that was independent of government. In a way, that was to do two things: to protect it from the challenges of operating in a political environment, and secondly, to build capability within the system and to build the market itself, rather than government being the biggest player.

I think the second thing, which we have not cracked yet within the U.K. and a lot of our focus is now looking at it, is essentially a constant challenge of public policy. How do you stop this being top down? How do you really involve the service beneficiaries or the social enterprises or social sector organizations in the design of these things that are essentially for their benefit? That is a crucial area in the U.K., which we are increasingly looking at.

4 p.m.

Conservative

Jim Eglinski Conservative Yellowhead, AB

Have you noticed an increase in private and not-for-profit involvement and an interest in social issues since these changes have been brought forward?

4 p.m.

Head, Social Investment and Finance, Government of the United Kingdom

Kieron Boyle

I think it's a complicated picture. In some areas, the answer is yes. I think within the U.K. a lot of what's happened on social finance would need to be understood within at least a kind of 30-year history of continued outsourcing, of the state being more and more comfortable with outsourcing services to private and third-sector organizations.

The past six or seven years, when there's been an acceleration of focus on social finance, has also been a time of considerable fiscal retrenchment within the U.K., a reduction in some of the grants that go to the social sector. So when we look at the data, it's pretty mixed. There is the extent to which social finance has engaged more social sector organizations in the delivery of services to the public, but within a wider context, some of that being the victim of fiscal retrenchment in the U.K.

4 p.m.

Conservative

Jim Eglinski Conservative Yellowhead, AB

Okay, thank you.

Were there any major regulatory changes that you had to undertake to implement social finance, other than talking about the regulatory person on the tax benefit part? Were there any other major regulatory changes that you had to make?

4 p.m.

Head, Social Investment and Finance, Government of the United Kingdom

Kieron Boyle

The short answer is no, though now we are looking at areas in which we can support this to happen. We've found within the U.K. that often, although there is no prohibition to doing social investment, unless it's expressly admitted, people feel it's implicitly prohibited.

A number of the political parties are focusing now on how you can build out regulation that more expressly admits and allows the idea of looking at issues beyond financial returns, particularly for the managers of money. We haven't had to look, for example, at the role of the regulation around charities' ability to take on investment. I know that has been an issue that's being looked at within the Canadian context.

4 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Phil McColeman

Thank you very much.

Now we move on to Mr. Cuzner for seven minutes, sir.

4 p.m.

Liberal

Rodger Cuzner Liberal Cape Breton—Canso, NS

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to thank Mr. Boyle for his testimony here today.

Could you give me your take in general terms? The social impact bonds, are they used more to find efficiencies and to improve existing programs or more to develop new programs or new services? Would you have a general sense as to how they are used, one way versus the other?

4 p.m.

Head, Social Investment and Finance, Government of the United Kingdom

Kieron Boyle

It's both, I think. I think there's an element of a Swiss Army knife here. It can be used in multiple ways.

There are 31 social impact bonds in the U.K. at the moment, in five different policy areas, including health, reoffending, youth unemployment, children at risk, and then adoption. We're seeing a variety of ways in which these are being used by public commissions.

Some are using these as a way of bringing innovation into the system, of essentially testing out ideas that they have a broad sense might work but not an absolute sense. They're keen to procure this for an outcomes-based approach and then to have a broader set of providers delivering this. They're using social investment to allow them to do that.

Some are looking at this area as a way of financing upfront interventions paid for by savings down the line, and essentially see this as the tool to enable them to do early intervention.

It's my gut feeling that over time we'll see both, but we'll see them going in slightly different ways. I think we'll probably start seeing much larger social impact bonds focused on things like efficiency savings, but we'll still see smaller dedicated social impact bonds looking at public service innovation.

4:05 p.m.

Liberal

Rodger Cuzner Liberal Cape Breton—Canso, NS

In the case of trying to improve on a program, do you not go through the program and do your own assessment and say, “We can deliver this in a more efficient way”? Can you look at it and do an assessment first, before you move towards a social impact bond?

Is that the norm as well? Has that been your experience?

4:05 p.m.

Head, Social Investment and Finance, Government of the United Kingdom

Kieron Boyle

Yes, absolutely.

Social impact bonds are a tool. They're a tool for better public services. They wouldn't be the first tool you start off with, particularly at the moment, where there's still an element of complexity to them. What we are finding is that in certain areas, and particularly around complex cohorts—for example, people with mental health issues, people presenting with a number of long-term conditions—it's been quite an effective tool.

Now, one of the challenges that's often asked in the U.K. is that if you know what works, why would you use a social impact bond? Isn't it an expensive way of tackling social issues? People I meet would agree, and say, “Yes, if you know what works, why on earth would you use a social impact bond?”

We do find that in a lot of areas in fact we don't know what works, or we only have a partial idea of what works. We might have some good evidence from a pilot in one area, but we don't know whether it will apply in another area. We also find that one of the big questions is that a lot of the benefits of a social impact bond could probably be handled through better public management of contracts, so why isn't that happening?

4:05 p.m.

Liberal

Rodger Cuzner Liberal Cape Breton—Canso, NS

It is a fairly extensive evaluation process that you go through with the government managers that are involved, pretty strict criteria with outcomes, expectations. Is there a bonus system, or—?

4:05 p.m.

Head, Social Investment and Finance, Government of the United Kingdom

Kieron Boyle

Yes. It is a strictly and tightly defined process where the public managers will look at the outcomes that they are seeking to achieve as specified to some degree—the outcomes they're trying to achieve, proof of those outcomes, and also the amount that they're willing to pay for those outcomes.

What that does is two things. One, it brings a degree of rigour, which you don't only get through a social impact bond, but it does come through a social impact bond. There's a second thing that we've started to discover within the U.K., which is a focus on outcomes starts to become a coordinating language.

Perhaps I can give a very practical example. In the U.K. we recently set up a £30-million social impact bond fund aimed at preventing youths becoming unemployed. What it was doing was intervening in youths aged 14 to 17 to improve things like their school attendance and their grades, because we know there's a very high correlation between those sorts of outcomes among those aged 14 to 17 and the risk of somebody becoming unemployed at age 18 to 21.

What my team did, what the bureaucrats did here, was that we went around to different public service departments and asked, “How much do you benefit from that 18-year-old not becoming unemployed?” They all said different amounts. Our department for benefits benefited the most for not paying unemployment benefits, but for example our Ministry of Justice and our Department of Health also saw benefits from this. They all essentially put in as much money into the pot as benefits that they gained from it.

The reason I go into some detail on that example is just to say that this focus on outcomes might be a way that we get around some of the silo spending streams that we sometimes see around trying to support people with complex needs.

4:10 p.m.

NDP

The Vice-Chair (Ms. Jinny Jogindera Sims) NDP Jinny Sims

Thank you very much for your presentation.

Now we go to my colleague, Mr. Armstrong.