We know that across Canada and even in this committee, a lot of concern is about labour shortages in this sector being one of the major barriers for expanding child care services to meet the demand. We also know that low wages, precarious work and lack of benefits in the sector make it difficult to recruit and retain qualified staff. I would say research also points to conditions for workers. It points to for-profit child care—not all—as having a record of not respecting liveable wages or good work standards for workers.

What are some examples of programs or policies that the federal government could pursue in collaboration with provinces to address some of these workforce issues and shortages?

10:40 a.m.

Senior Program Specialist, Vanier Institute of the Family

Dr. Sophie Mathieu

I'm going to draw on Quebec's experience to answer.

We have had work-study programs recently set up by the government. You can go to CEGEP—college—and while you do your study to become an early child care worker, you are also paid to work. After each semester you can get scholarships. You can also be working and have some of your experience recognized.

In Quebec, we had a program in 2020 to recruit 10,000 préposés aux bénéficiaires. I'm sorry, I don't know the word in English. It was to recruit people working in long-term care facilities. The program has worked, although not quite 10,000 people remained in their job after the program. There was an initiative by the government to really push to have more people become interested in that profession.

These are some of the initiatives. There's work-study and then it's really about political will, I would say.

10:45 a.m.

NDP

Leah Gazan NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB

I would agree with you. The NDP has been really pushing hard for liveable wages and benefits for workers. I mention it often because I'm so proud as a former early childhood educator. I might have stayed in the field and not pursued a teaching career, ending up at the university. I enjoyed it so much, but I wasn't willing to live in poverty, so I left the field as a young woman.

My last question is for you, Mr. Fortin. I know you've done tremendous work in the field and I want to commend you for all of your research and efforts.

Your submission to the committee states that research literature unanimously concluded that quality of childhood was the highest in non-profit CPEs. You also mentioned it again today. It's the lowest in private for-profit centres.

Could you expand on this briefly, and maybe suggest ways in which you believe this legislation could be strengthened to better safeguard affordable, accessible, universal and high-quality child care?

Thank you, Mr. Fortin.

10:45 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey

You have 40 seconds, Mr. Fortin.

10:45 a.m.

Emeritus Professor of Economics, As an Individual

Pierre Fortin

I'm going to start by not answering your question and suggesting that the indicator to actively follow when it comes to the wages paid to educators in child care services is the ratio between employees of child care services and primary and secondary school teachers published in Statistics Canada's Monthly Survey of Employment, Payrolls and Hours.

Quebec does a little better than the Canadian average, but not much. Regardless of the province, there is a lot of progress to be made when it comes to training and paying these people.

10:45 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey

Thank you, Mr. Fortin, and thank you, Ms. Gazan. Our time is now over. With that, is it the pleasure of the committee to adjourn?

10:45 a.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

10:45 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey

Before we do, I want to thank the witnesses for appearing. I did give you a lot of latitude on the timelines, especially to Mr. Fortin and Ms. Churcher, because it was important to hear both sides of the discussion. With that, thank you for participating.

The meeting is adjourned.