Human Resources Committee on Nov. 22nd, 2023

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

This is for either Ms. Blais or Mr. Soucy. I'd like to give you a chance to finish answering the question I asked you earlier, about the effects of implementing AI systems.

We know that many employers in certain sectors contract out work. Do you have any real-life examples of the impact AI is having in those sectors?

[Nathalie Blais]

I can talk about the telecommunications sector. Canada's big telecom companies outsource work overseas, to workers in countries that don't have the same laws we do. That's true for call centres, IT helpdesks, planning design and so on. That alone raises concerns around the privacy of Canadian customers and the employees of those companies.

We've also noticed that AI tends to enhance the capabilities of other technologies. For instance, when combined with AI, 5G technology, which is currently being deployed, will allow for the automation of numerous activities in telecom companies, possibly leading to the demise of highly skilled jobs.

I don't know how those employees would be retrained. Companies are reluctant to do that as of now. That's what we have realized. Companies prefer to use contractors to do all the work within the company or hire people straight out of school.

The government talks a lot about the middle class. What's going to happen to middle-class workers whose jobs are in the process of being automated? Will they be retrained to do work equally as technical as the jobs being taken over by AI? That's something to consider.

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Do you think employers have a duty when it comes to training employees? Should employers already be training skilled employees in anticipation of the transition?

[Nathalie Blais]

Would you like to answer that, Mr. Soucy?

[Danick Soucy]

Yes, employers should retrain employees and give them a chance to move to another position within the company. They can't just let workers end up jobless. Ultimately, society will have to take care of those people who are out of work.

Employers have a duty to their employees. It's not okay to toss employees aside to reap the advantages of new technologies while society pays the price.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Ms. Chabot.

Madam Zarrillo, go ahead for two and a half minutes.

[Bonita Zarrillo, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm going to direct my question initially to Mr. Soucy and then, if we have time, to Mr. Kiron. I'm interested in talking a little bit about consent, the consent of workers that was introduced with this idea of surveillance of workers and really having workers be part of the conversations around what technology comes into the workplace.

I wonder if there have been any conversations, Mr. Soucy, around the consent of workers and what kind of federal legislation could be in place to protect workers and allow them to give consent before they're surveilled.

[Danick Soucy]

When it comes to consent, it's important to know what information is being collected about workers. Employees can't really give their consent when employers aren't transparent and don't disclose the data they are collecting.

Employers should be required to disclose the data they are collecting.

[Bonita Zarrillo, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

Thank you so much.

I will just ask one more question to Mr. Soucy before I move on. There is testimony that recommends that an advisory council be struck by the federal government. I'm just wondering if you believe transparency is one of the key areas that an advisory council needs to look into.

[Danick Soucy]

Yes, without a doubt. Transparency is really the key to instilling confidence in the public and workers. Without transparency, it's going to be extremely difficult to get society to accept the implementation of AI in the workplace.

[Bonita Zarrillo, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

Thank you so much.

Mr. Kiron, I just want to ask you too about consent and how a federal regulation could allow for consent for workers or could protect workers in that space.

[Dr. David Kiron]

I would elevate the question to focus on decent jobs. If legislation enables businesses to have jobs that are, for lack of a better word, indecent, and if you were to consent, they would be so dehumanizing that you wouldn't want to actually populate your economy with this kind of work situation. Consent in that context would just perpetuate these really awful working conditions, but if those are the only jobs that they people can get, they will consent. I don't know how much that can be generalized, but that's definitely a consideration, and a limitation on consent can solve all of these problems. The same is true with transparency.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Mr. Kiron.

Ms. Gray, go ahead for five minutes.

[Tracy Gray, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'll go back to Mr. Kiron.

Have you had a chance to review the new AI rules that came out earlier this year in the U.S.? Do you believe there would be any benefit to Canada if we were to harmonize our rules with those of the U.S. or of other countries? Do you have any comments on that?

[Dr. David Kiron]

Unfortunately I don't want to represent myself as enough of an expert to say a lot about all of the different regulations that are going on. In the EU and in the U.S. one of the big considerations that Canadian legislators need to factor in is how to enable AI to flourish in a way that supports businesses and the workers without creating a dehumanizing inequitable two-tiered system with workers.

[Tracy Gray, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Thank you.

Do you believe, from your experience, that there's a potential for opening up copyright issues? Do you think our copyright laws are strong enough in Canada right now?

[Dr. David Kiron]

Again, I'm sorry. I don't know enough about the Canadian context, but they are not strong enough. Copyright laws are not strong enough.

It's not clear. There are so many issues that are new and need to be wrestled with that haven't really been wrestled with.

You have singers. You can use large language models to say, “Come up with a song in the style of Harry Styles” or whoever, and it can create a song with the lyrics and the musical accompaniments. Is Harry Styles owed anything as a result of this?

[Tracy Gray, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Great. Thank you for your comments on that and for that comparison. I appreciate that.

Mr. Chair, I would like to go forward with moving another motion here. This has been circulated to the committee.

I will read the motion:

That, pursuant to the Order of Reference of Thursday November 9th, 2023, the Minister of Employment, Workforce Development and Official Languages, the Minister of Housing, Infrastructure and Communities, the Minister of Diversity, Inclusion and Persons with Disabilities, the Minister of Labour and Seniors, the Minister of Families, Children and Social Development, and the Minister of Citizens’ Services, appear before the Committee for no fewer than 2 hours each to consider the Supplementary Estimates (B) before Friday, December 1st, 2023.

It is a normal practice for us to have ministers come to the committee, so this is formally requesting them to do this. This is also particularly important considering that motion I previously put forth, which was not successful, to look at the benefits delivery modernization programme.... In fact, the Liberal member opposite noted that it would be something that could be brought up when the ministers come here to talk about estimates, so this is perfect timing. Therefore, this should be easily supported by the members here.

This is really important considering that we're looking at the numbers; we're looking at the extra spending of the government. We also have a new minister in here as well with a new portfolio, and so this is really timely to have this minister come forth. We haven't had this minister before the committee.

As I mentioned earlier, we also have the Auditor General's report, which hasn't been addressed yet, and we can question the ministers on that as well.

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you.

We now have, on the motion, Mr. Aitchison, and I believe, Mrs. Falk, Ms. Ferreri and Mr. Kusmierczyk.

Again, to the witnesses, this is in order before the committee.

Mr. Aitchison, if you soon don't get the floor, I will go to Mrs. Falk.

[Scott Aitchison, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

Go to Mrs. Falk.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Mrs. Falk, and then Ms. Ferreri, Mr. Kusmierczyk, Madame Chabot and Mr. Coteau.

[Michael Coteau, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

I have a point of order.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Go ahead.

[Michael Coteau, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

Should we end the session with the witnesses at this point, considering that there's such a long list? Is the committee business at 6 o'clock?

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Yes, committee business is at 6 o'clock. The meeting is still within its timeslot with the witnesses, so I will ask the witnesses to stay until we deal with this.

Mrs. Falk, you have the floor. Then it's Ms. Ferreri, then Mr. Kusmierczyk and Ms. Chabot.