Evidence of meeting #91 for Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was parents.
A recording is available from Parliament.
12:35 p.m.
NDP
Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON
That's extraordinary. I raised three daughters. If they had all arrived at the same time, I probably.... I don't know what I would have done.
12:35 p.m.
Some hon. members
Oh, oh!
12:35 p.m.
NDP
Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON
I would have lost what's left of my hair.
How common is it that when you're adopting now, you're adopting siblings, pairs and children who are older and coming out of foster care?
12:35 p.m.
Executive Director, Adopt4Life
Eleven years ago—it's going to be 11 years shortly since we met our children—I would say it was quite rare to grow your family with three older children, but today, sibling groups are normal, and so are older children.
We have children across Canada, teens, who are really longing for permanency. Sometimes there may even be 18 or 19 years old, but because they're older doesn't mean that the parent who is growing their family doesn't need time in welcoming them. We actually need a lot more time, because they have experienced so many more losses and struggles along the journey before they join us.
12:35 p.m.
NDP
Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON
I was pleased that you mentioned Irwin Elman, who I think is one of the great heroes. He was the very first person Doug Ford fired when the Ford government came in. I mean, Irwin Elman kept children alive with his work.
I mention him because, in my region, adoption has some very dark sides to it because of what's happened in indigenous communities. I think of Azraya Ackabee-Kokopenace from Grassy Narrows, and Amy Owen and Courtney Scott from Fort Albany. We also lost Kanina Sue Turtle, Chantel Fox, Jolynn Winter—we lost all these children, and Irwin Elman documented what happened to them. They went into a black hole in this foster care system.
Adopt4Life has called for support for kinship and customary care. These indigenous children could have been raised and protected in their communities and in their culture.
Do you have language that could help us for the legislation? Have you looked at the importance of kinship and customary support so that indigenous children are not being taken out of their communities and dropped into the black hole that they are all too often thrown into?
12:35 p.m.
Executive Director, Adopt4Life
We would be absolutely delighted to be working alongside you to make sure. We know how kin like grandparents and aunties and uncles and customary care are so important to the lives of our children, so they deserve to have the right support. We would be delighted to work alongside you to make sure that this is reflected in the language of any legislation.
12:40 p.m.
NDP
Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON
Again, I think Irwin Elman is the ultimate expert I've met—he and Cindy Blackstock—in terms of understanding children. There's a reality facing indigenous children who cannot be raised by their parent, necessarily, or their parents, but can be raised in the customary culture. How do we make sure that we don't repeat these mistakes so that we give adoptive parents all the support they need and so that we give older siblings that support?
I would certainly encourage you to speak more with Irwin, because he really has an understanding of this file.
12:40 p.m.
NDP
Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON
Yes. Thank you.
Finally, I read one of the letters from someone who said they were opposed to the bill because maternity benefits were never meant to acknowledge parenthood but existed to deal with the trauma of the physical process of childbirth. Am I missing something? Is there a contradiction or a conflict between maternity and parental benefits for this that we should be addressing, or is this...?
12:40 p.m.
Executive Director, Adopt4Life
No, this is a parity. I think you can find more information and a better understanding through the reports of Western University, but this is not a comparison. We are not taking anything from birth families. It is just providing more attachment because we have not had that attachment time.
12:40 p.m.
Liberal
12:40 p.m.
President, Fédération des parents adoptants du Québec
I'd just like to add that this is why adoptive mothers in Quebec do not receive maternity leave, but rather welcome and support leave. They are different benefits that meet different needs. They last for the same amount of time, in the interest of equity for all families. If the situation had been evaluated on the basis of needs, more leave would have been required for adopted children in certain instances, but no one wanted to create a new inequity as a consequence of correcting an existing one. That's why it's the same for everyone.
The different wording came about in response to that line of argument.
12:40 p.m.
Liberal
12:40 p.m.
Conservative
Michelle Ferreri Conservative Peterborough—Kawartha, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you to the witnesses for being here today to chat about Bill C-318, an act to amend the Employment Insurance Act and the Canada Labour Code (adoptive and intended parents). It was put forth by my colleague MP Falk, and it's very important legislation.
Ms. Despaties, do you have any data on how long it takes older children to bond or attach to their adoptive parents? Do you have that data?
12:40 p.m.
Executive Director, Adopt4Life
I don't have scientific data, but what I know and what I was told earlier on is that when a child comes into your home, it takes double the time of the child's age. When my children came into our home, to be solidly attached.... Our children were eight, 11 and 13. For some of them, it was very difficult at the beginning to truly attach. I don't think we needed the 13 years for our 13-year-old. She's 24 and she's solidly attached, and so are all of our children. However, it does take time, because we have to repair the loss of attachment that they've been robbed off. They have lost a lot of people in their lives, so it does take a significant amount of time.
12:40 p.m.
Conservative
Michelle Ferreri Conservative Peterborough—Kawartha, ON
I actually find the science of this discussion fascinating in terms of the prefrontal cortex of developing children and what happens in those formative years. I think it's a very important discussion, when we look at how important this legislation is, because there is a very scientific aspect to this that turns out a social end as well.
With regard to that point, I'm wondering this: Do you have any data on the trajectory of kids in foster care who don't get placed with permanent adoptive parents? I know they are more at risk. Isn't that right? They have a lot more...higher acuity issues. Do you have anything around that?
12:40 p.m.
Executive Director, Adopt4Life
I don't have all the data here. I think you'll have a speaker soon who is more able to speak to this.
However, you are right. The trajectory of children aging out of care is more challenging. Their ability to complete university, to create solid attachments as they grow.... It's just difficult because they have been failed by a system that is just not there to support them. We don't want our Canadian children to age out of care without having an adult to be attached to.
12:45 p.m.
Conservative
Michelle Ferreri Conservative Peterborough—Kawartha, ON
And to trust.
The reason I ask you that, I guess, is with regard to my next point. How do you think this bill will incentivize somebody who is considering adoption but who financially may not be able to do it or may not be able to take that time off work? They're fearful. They do know it takes time to attach and to bond. Do you think this legislation will incentivize parents who are considering adopting to adopt?
12:45 p.m.
Executive Director, Adopt4Life
Absolutely.
l was referring to stats that stated that 21% of interviewed parents doing the study said that the current 35 weeks prevented them from adopting a child with complex needs. Well, a lot of our children who are waiting for permanency do have complex needs and are experiencing loss and trauma, which require so much more time.
I fundamentally believe, especially with older children.... When I grew my family, people thought, “Oh, you can sleep at night.” Well, no, excuse me. It doesn't mean that it was rosy and easy at home just because my children were eight, 11 and 13. There was so much sadness and grief. It was not easy.
I truly think that our older children especially need more time from us so that they can really know that we are there for good, that we're there.
12:45 p.m.
Conservative
Michelle Ferreri Conservative Peterborough—Kawartha, ON
That was very well said.
The complexities of needs.... It's sort of a chicken-and-egg situation. They have complexities of needs because they don't have that bond, because they don't have that attachment. It's a very chicken-and-egg thing.
I think you are 100% right. As a mom, I can tell you that the complexities of what our children need as they age definitely change.
If I could add....
I think I have only a minute or so left, Mr. Chair.
12:45 p.m.
Conservative
Michelle Ferreri Conservative Peterborough—Kawartha, ON
Perhaps we could get your advice as somebody who went through this. I know it is impossible to describe it, but how valuable was it for you to adopt those three children?
12:45 p.m.
Executive Director, Adopt4Life
It was life-changing. It was difficult. There was never an easy moment. There was a lot of joy, but it was sprinkled across the spectrum of the years. Truly, my life would not be the same without them.
Even in the hardest moment.... I was asking one of my children, “What would you like me to say to people?” It was difficult. We were struggling together significantly. My child said, “Well, tell them that on your dying bed, you will know that it was all worth it.”
