Evidence of meeting #92 for Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was family.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Shelley Rottenberg  Instructional Assistant, As an Individual
Cathy Murphy  Chairperson and adoptive parent, Child and Youth Permanency Council of Canada
Cassaundra Eisner  Student, As an Individual
Carolyn McLeod  Professor, Western University, As an Individual

4:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair (Mr. Robert Morrissey (Egmont, Lib.)) Liberal Bobby Morrissey

Committee members, the clerk has advised me that there is a quorum present and that all witnesses and members appearing virtually have had their sound quality verified, so I will call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 92 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities. Pursuant to the order of reference of Wednesday, September 30, 2023, the committee will continue its consideration of Bill C-318, an act to amend the Employment Insurance Act and the Canada Labour Code regarding adoptive and intended parents.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the Standing Orders. Members and witnesses are attending in person in the room and virtually as well.

I will remind those in the room and those attending virtually that you have the option to choose the official language of your choice. If there is a disruption in the translation, please get my attention and I will suspend while it's being clarified. Those of you attending virtually can use the globe symbol on the bottom of your Surface screen. Click on it, and choose the official language that you wish to participate in. Those attending in the room, please keep your earpiece away from the microphone for the protection of the interpreters.

Appearing with us today, in the room, we have Cathy Murphy, chairperson and adoptive parent, for the Child and Youth Permanency Council of Canada. Then, by video conference and as an individual, we have Shelley Rottenberg, instructional assistant.

We will begin the first hour with an opening statement from Ms. Rottenberg.

Ms. Rottenberg, you have five minutes for your opening statement.

4:40 p.m.

Shelley Rottenberg Instructional Assistant, As an Individual

Hello. My name is Shelley Rottenberg. It's a pleasure to be attending this meeting as a witness today.

I'm the secretary for the Child and Youth Permanency Council of Canada, the co-president of China's Children International, and the associate director for engagement and social media for Asian Adoptees of Canada. I will be speaking based on my lived experience as a transracial international adoptee. I was born in China during the one-child policy and adopted to Canada by a single mother when I was a baby.

I support the government providing 15 additional weeks of attachment leave for employment insurance benefits for adoptive parents. If this had been available to my mom when she adopted me, it would have greatly benefited our family. At the time, my mom was not able to take any leave of absence, except for the time it took to travel to China. We do not have any extended family who live close to us, so she had to rely on friends and babysitters to look after me while she worked.

Adoptive parents deserve equal access to parental leave benefits. It is especially important for parents who adopt a baby or child from a different country, culture or racial background because time is not only needed for the parent and child to bond. The adoptee also needs adequate time to adjust to other new unique changes in environment, language, customs, etc.

Growing up, it was always clear to me what I had gained through adoption. I am very grateful for my mom and sister and for all the opportunities I've had throughout my life, although people often forget about the circumstances that made adoption necessary. My adoption paperwork says that I was abandoned at the front door of a garment factory and then brought to a police station and then the orphanage. I was then placed in a foster home in China until my mom became my legal guardian and brought me home to Canada.

I was labelled with failure to thrive because I was very sick when my mom adopted me. I had bronchitis and couldn't keep food down at first. Now that I'm older, when I reflect on my first couple of years of life, I am both in awe and saddened by all of the hardships that I went through as an infant. Research shows how important the earliest years of life are in terms of a child's development. Therefore, given all of the major life changes that can come with adoption, and considering the potential losses of birth family, culture and country, it is crucial that parents have plenty of time to support their adopted baby or child in the beginning stages of this journey.

Even if the adopted baby or child appears well adjusted, additional time to form strong and secure attachments with adoptive parents will only benefit the adoptee and better set them up for success.

That concludes my statement. Thank you so much, everyone, for your time, and at any point I'm happy to answer questions.

Thank you.

4:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey

Thank you, Ms. Rottenberg.

Now we'll go to Ms. Murphy for five minutes or less, please.

4:40 p.m.

Cathy Murphy Chairperson and adoptive parent, Child and Youth Permanency Council of Canada

Thank you, Shelley. That was well said.

Good afternoon. My name is Cathy Murphy, and I'm the chairperson at the Child and Youth Permanency Council of Canada.

I worked in child welfare and social services for just over 35 years and retired in this past year. I've had the true privilege of working with adoptive families, kinship caregivers and customary caregivers right across Canada, but most importantly today, I am an adoptive parent. My children, who are now young adults, continue to teach me every day why time to attach is so important for every permanency family in Canada.

There was a time not so long ago when our children—my son, now 32, and my daughter, now 27 years of age—joined our family through adoption. Our son lived in the child welfare system, and our daughter was adopted from China. Our family has had experience with both public adoption and international adoption. Each of our children has their own unique strengths and their own unique challenges.

Our son had six placements in the child welfare system before he joined our family as a preschooler. We now know that he is living with fetal alcohol spectrum disorder. We had no idea at the time. His experiences in his earlier life taught him that the world was not a safe or predictable place, and he had difficulty trusting. Our daughter had two placements—with her first family and foster family, and then with the orphanage—before she joined our family at one year of age.

When our son first came to us, we were introduced to him as “Mommy Cathy” and “Daddy Jim”. My husband is a fire chief here in Ottawa, and for any of you who know little boys and little girls, they love firefighters. My son was no different. He adored his daddy from day one.

I did not become “Mommy Cathy”. I was, “Hey lady” out of the side of his mouth for many years. “Hey lady” was the response I would get if I asked him to do something or if I tried to play with him. “Hey lady” was where I was told to sit, which was outside our kitchen, outside our dining room at dinnertime.

Three and a half years after our son joined our family, it was at bath-time one night, and we had been going through the same consistent routine every night. He loved Batman figures and all things comic book, and he had them all in the bathtub with him that night. He looked up and said, “Hmm. You a very, very good mama. Did you know that?” It still breaks my heart to this day because it took him three and a half years to say the word “mama”.

He is now 32 and has lived through some incredible times, as has our family, but I can tell you that not for one single moment have I ever regretted that connection or the incredible commitment that comes with being adoptive parents. What I know first-hand is what they need to be successful and strong and to be survivors, and what our kids need as well.

I have truly had the honour of working with thousands of adoptive families: kinships, which are just extended grandparents, and perhaps aunties and uncles; and customary caregivers, which are indigenous families across Canada. I've learned that every child and youth I met needed time to adapt and to adjust to their new setting and family before the attachment process could even begin.

Many children and youth, just like my son, have learned to mistrust. Their worlds were not safe and not predictable, and their caregivers let them down time and time again. They formed anxious attachments or, in the case of my son, may have had difficulty forming any attachment at all because of the many caregivers they've had in their lives and the developmental trauma they may have experienced.

We can build trust by meeting our children and youth where they are, by showing up for them over and over again, by smiling even when you're called “Hey lady” and by celebrating when, three and a half years later, you're finally called “mama”. Then very slowly, they may begin to realize that we are dependable, that we are reliable and that we might—and I emphasize might—be worthy of their trust. The attachment process begins with trepidation, and guess what. It doesn't ever end. It's tested many times over the weeks, months and years to come, because they learned at a very early age that the world is not a safe place.

Every permanency family, whether customary caregiver, kinship caregiver or adoptive parent, has their own unique circumstances. Some parents will have time to prepare for their child or youth to join their family. For others, it will happen very quickly, actually in the middle of the night or overnight, sometimes without warning because the circumstances are beyond the control of the child or youth. These families will need resources. They will need support. They will need connections. They will need to know that their government stands with them during some very trying and difficult times.

What is “time to attach”? It's an additional 15-week attachment leave for customary caregivers, kinship caregivers and adoptive parents. It's calling upon our Canadian government to treat all families equally and fairly—equitable treatment.

Truth be told, the children and youth in my house and the children and youth I've had the privilege of working with need much more than an additional 15-week attachment leave, but by delivering on this attachment leave promise, the Government of Canada would be standing up for families who are supporting the needs of these children and youth, and yes, this is not insignificant.

In Canada, there are approximately 30,000 children and youth living in our child welfare system. Each year, approximately 1,700 of those children and youth find permanency families. Youth are aging out of our child welfare system at an alarming rate, and without permanency, their outcomes are not good. We all need to care about and advocate for the children and youth living in our child welfare system.

We also need to acknowledge that more than half of those children and youth are African Canadian and indigenous. Less than 0.3% of all Canadians have spent time in the child welfare system—less than 0.3%—but more than 65% of all unhoused Canadians have spent time in the child welfare system. Listen to that again: Less than 0.3% of all Canadians have ever spent time in the child welfare system, but more than 65% of all unhoused Canadians have spent time in the system.

We need to raise the age at which youth age out of the child welfare system—in every province and territory in Canada—and lower these statistics. We need to promote and support older child and youth adoptions in Canada and support different forms of permanency. Most children and youth in the system are over 10 years of age now, maybe in a sibling group, and maybe living with visible or invisible special needs. Our son was diagnosed with fetal alcohol spectrum disorder at the age of 12 and required a host of resources that we were more than happy to tap into in order for him to reach his highest potential.

Today, I'm advocating for time to attach, because it matters. It matters to the children and youth. It matters to their families.

Thank you very much.

4:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey

Thank you, Ms. Murphy. Anything that you didn't get to say you could raise in your answers to questions.

4:50 p.m.

Conservative

Tracy Gray Conservative Kelowna—Lake Country, BC

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair, just quickly before we begin. I'm wondering if we can get the video turned on in the room here in the House of Commons if there's a livestreaming video.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

4:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey

Sure. Thank you.

I want to welcome MP Kelloway and MP Angus, who are joining us today.

With that, we'll begin with the first round and Ms. Falk for six minutes, please.

4:50 p.m.

Conservative

Rosemarie Falk Conservative Battlefords—Lloydminster, SK

Thank you very much, Chair.

I want to say thank you to both our witnesses, Ms. Murphy and Ms. Rottenberg, for your vulnerability and for your willingness to come to committee and share your stories, because I know that digging deep and digging in the past is sometimes hard to do. I want to thank you both for your bravery and courage in sharing your stories today.

Ms. Murphy, if I can start with you, I'm just wondering why a permanency family is so important for children and youth.

4:50 p.m.

Chairperson and adoptive parent, Child and Youth Permanency Council of Canada

Cathy Murphy

Permanency families are important for children and youth because without them they don't have a safety net. They don't have anybody there to support them through challenging times.

I think of our children at 27 and 32. We are still touchstones for them constantly. We have been able to give them that permanency. I think of some of the youth that I work with through Canada's permanency council, and they don't have that safety net. They don't have that security. They've never found a form of permanency. We need to make a difference for children and youth.

4:50 p.m.

Conservative

Rosemarie Falk Conservative Battlefords—Lloydminster, SK

Thank you very much for that.

You touched on this a bit, but I'm wondering if you can expand further on how adoptive families in particular would benefit from having this proposed 15-week attachment benefit. What would that look like for the youth, but also for the guardians and the parents, the adults who are taking in those youth?

4:50 p.m.

Chairperson and adoptive parent, Child and Youth Permanency Council of Canada

Cathy Murphy

What that means is that they are available to their child or youth, who has joined their family through adoption, to build those routines and attachments. It's showing up, just like I was talking about, and being there for them.

Even if a youth is joining their family at age 12 or 13, it's really important for that parent or caregiver to be there, to be able to meet them after school or to maybe take them out to their favourite lunch spot over lunch hour once a week, because that's usually the only way you're going to get them out to lunch.

By continually showing up and being actively involved in their life, they are going to realize after an extended period of time that their parents are there for them.

4:50 p.m.

Conservative

Rosemarie Falk Conservative Battlefords—Lloydminster, SK

Thank you for that.

Even looking at my own children, it's having that opportunity once in a while to take one of them to the McDonald's PlayPlace, for example, or going to the park or doing those things. Not only does it give that opportunity for attachment to foster but also for trust to grow. We're learning more and more, especially with little people, that play is so important. It's being able to have that time to take off the parent hat or guardian hat and put the kid hat on.

Even with older kids, there's a whole other slew of pressures that come with middle school and high school and changing. From the testimony I've heard, and from the families I've been able to speak with, it's having that additional time to just sit and take time, sometimes even sitting and holding a hand.

Thank you very much for that.

4:55 p.m.

Chairperson and adoptive parent, Child and Youth Permanency Council of Canada

Cathy Murphy

If I can say one more thing, I just want to thank Shelley and Cassie for being here today.

4:55 p.m.

Conservative

Rosemarie Falk Conservative Battlefords—Lloydminster, SK

Yes. I was going to go to Ms. Rottenberg next.

As I said earlier, thank you so much for sharing and being vulnerable and open, so that people who sit in this place, who maybe haven't had the opportunity to experience adoption in their immediate or close families, are able to hear your first-hand experience.

In your opinion, how important is it for adopted children and youth to build those attachments with their new family?

4:55 p.m.

Instructional Assistant, As an Individual

Shelley Rottenberg

I think it's very important to build the attachment, to allow the bonds, as you mentioned, and to have trust form. I think that's done through repetition and time. You can't fast-track that necessarily. It takes time to build and to grow and to foster. Then it's also having that routine as well, just the consistency of showing up.

Growing up, my mom—she was a social worker—always said, “I'm always in your corner.” That's something she would use with people she worked with, and she always said that to me. I knew she was my number one cheerleader throughout my whole life.

If there were more time early on, where she didn't have to worry about going to work and leaving me with someone else, that probably would have sped up that process of growing and building that trust and the bond to have that more secure attachment.

4:55 p.m.

Conservative

Rosemarie Falk Conservative Battlefords—Lloydminster, SK

That's wonderful. Thank you so much.

Do you think that for every child it might be different? Might it take a different amount of time for a healthy, secure attachment to form?

4:55 p.m.

Instructional Assistant, As an Individual

Shelley Rottenberg

Yes. I think that every child is different. They have different stories from before they were adopted. That might impact the adjustment period and the time they might need to attach.

As I mentioned, even if the baby or the child seems very well adjusted—there are not any obvious issues or needs—it doesn't mean that there are not potentially underlying.... Also, being proactive by having that time to really show you are able to support and love and be consistent and show up, I think, could be very good in terms of not having issues form later on.

It is different, though. Every child is different. It's giving the time for the parent to get to know the child's needs and really listening to them, and then being able to support them in whatever ways might show up with whatever they can do. That could require getting additional help from other people and resources as well.

4:55 p.m.

Conservative

Rosemarie Falk Conservative Battlefords—Lloydminster, SK

That's wonderful.

Thank you both so much.

4:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey

Mr. Coteau, you have six minutes.

4:55 p.m.

Liberal

Michael Coteau Liberal Don Valley East, ON

Thank you very much.

Thank you to both of our witnesses.

It's always an honour to meet people who are doing good things for children and families. It means a lot to me personally. In my whole political career, I've always looked for ways to help children and level the playing field in many ways. Advocates, to me, are heroes who go out there and look for ways to create a better world around us.

Ms. Murphy, you said that there are 30,000 young people in care across the country. Was I correct in hearing that 1,700 per year are adopted? Is that correct?

4:55 p.m.

Chairperson and adoptive parent, Child and Youth Permanency Council of Canada

Cathy Murphy

It is 1,700 a year are who are finding some form of permanency. It may be adoption. There may be kinship caregivers or customary caregivers as well.

4:55 p.m.

Liberal

Michael Coteau Liberal Don Valley East, ON

I would imagine that making the decision to care for a child is a big decision. There is a time consideration and a financial consideration, and there are so many other pieces that connect to it. Sometimes it can be very difficult.

In removing barriers by providing time, for example, which ends up providing more resources, I assume there would be an uptick in potential placements, adoptions or providing care, which would contribute to that 1,700 number.

Is there any research or has anything been looked at to support that claim?

5 p.m.

Chairperson and adoptive parent, Child and Youth Permanency Council of Canada

Cathy Murphy

I think there could be an uptick. I think we also need to provide a great deal more in the way of supports and resources. You'll probably be hearing from Adopt4Life and the Child and Youth Permanency Council about that too, because this is just the beginning of the journey.

For example, my own family has spent hundreds of thousands of dollars on therapies, supports and treatment programs for our son alone. That is very common in adopted families.

The government's standing up and agreeing to this 15-week attachment leave is the beginning of a journey for us. It's a long journey and we need a lot of resources and supports. I am sure you're aware of that from previous portfolios you've held as well.

It's a lot. I would do it again in a heartbeat, but it is a lot.

5 p.m.

Liberal

Michael Coteau Liberal Don Valley East, ON

Some of the questions we are asking today must seem so obvious, like the Captain Obvious commercials. Is it good to do this? It's good for kids, and we all know this. This is a process we go through at the House of Commons.

I see the decision to put in place this type of program as a new start to build on. I know I might be getting ahead of myself, but you have opened up a window here. What are some of the other things that advocates, experts and families are suggesting are needed in this country as we move forward to build an even better system?

5 p.m.

Chairperson and adoptive parent, Child and Youth Permanency Council of Canada

Cathy Murphy

Definitely, many of our children, if not all of them, have experienced some form of developmental trauma. Finding mental health supports and people experienced with developmental trauma is a challenge right now in Canada. It's definitely a challenge that adopted families face.

I would like to also shine a spotlight on those children and youth who are not finding permanency families and are not being adopted. They remain in our system, and we all need to care about them. That is a significant problem here in Canada.

I think that further advocacy can shine lights on all of those pieces.