Citizenship and Immigration Committee on April 2nd, 2008

[John Hopkins]

First of all, it is critical that people are protected under the exact same laws as we have for everyone else. I don't think you can have one law that protects Canadian workers and another law that protects other workers in the same country. We can't have a system like that whatsoever. If there are employers who are treating employees in the fashion you described, they should be charged and maybe go to jail, or whatever the case may be. It's totally unacceptable.

I'm proud to be a Canadian, and part of the pride I have is because of the standard of living we have that protects workers and people from things like that happening. So measures need to be in place to ensure that kind of thing doesn't happen. I think my colleague spoke a little about that earlier, so maybe I'll let him respond.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Feel free to jump in at any time at all. We're trying to make this as informal as we possibly can.

[Eric Johansen]

Thank you.

I think you're raising a valid issue. It's one that in Saskatchewan I don't think we've seen yet. Saskatchewan's economic boom is a fairly recent phenomenon. When we look to our neighbours to the west who have been experiencing the kinds of labour shortages that we're seeing now for a longer period of time and have used the temporary foreign worker program in a much more significant way than has occurred here, we see there is significant evidence that there have been serious problems.

As I mentioned earlier, we do need to recognize that temporary foreign workers are particularly vulnerable because they don't have the ability to move in the labour market like other Canadians and other residents of Canada. They're tied to a specific job. I would see three ways that you could deal with that.

One is simply through information to the worker. If we can find better ways to work with Citizenship and Immigration Canada and with Service Canada to get out that information about labour standards in Saskatchewan, for instance, that may help alleviate some of the issues. They need to know what their rights are--what they should be paid, what kinds of hours they should be working, what kinds of working conditions should be offered to them by their employer. The problem is that we're not part of the system that gets them to Saskatchewan, so we need to find mechanisms to be able to get that information to them. They come through the federal system, and we don't hear from them until they show up on the doorstep of the labour standards people in Saskatchewan.

[Thierry St-Cyr, Bloc, Jeanne-Le Ber, QC]

Does the fact that a visa is granted for a single employer give that employer a lot of power? To all intents and purposes, if the employee is not satisfied with his working conditions, he can't go elsewhere, unlike a Canadian employee, who, if he isn't happy with his employer, especially in the context of a labour shortage, will go see another. That's all.

Would we be solving part of the problem if we granted a visa, for example, for an occupation in a province, which would enable temporary workers to change employers if the latter didn't act properly?

[Eric Johansen]

Actually, we've considered some options similar to that in Saskatchewan. We haven't pursued them perhaps to the degree that we might have. But we did have discussions a couple of years ago with our federal counterparts around using our nominee program in a similar fashion, where we would identify a certain occupation that was in shortage in Saskatchewan and have arrangements in place that a regional kind of visa could be offered to that individual. That way they would have the opportunity to come to Saskatchewan, find their own employment, and if necessary, move.

My instincts say that would reduce the vulnerability of the temporary foreign worker in Canada significantly, because if they were in an untenable situation, they'd have an option. The only option a temporary foreign worker has now, if they are in an untenable situation, is to take legal recourse through the labour standards process, or try to go back to Service Canada, find another employer, go through the LMO process, etc., and that's very hard to do. It has been done, but it's a difficult process. And for somebody who's in Canada, feeling vulnerable, dependent on that paycheque, it is a difficult situation.

I think that idea that you raised merits further consideration.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Your shortage of workers here in Saskatchewan would stem from two problems. It would be that your economy has improved to such an extent that you need more workers as a result. But is it true that workers from Saskatchewan have moved further west, out to Alberta, to the tar sands? Is that a problem as well?

[John Hopkins]

There's no question that's part of the issue, but we're also seeing people come back now, and we're seeing them come back like we've never seen them before. And that's a good thing. But you're right, for many decades a lot of the people who grew up in Saskatchewan went to Alberta or B.C., some to Toronto, some to other places. I think we're starting to see that curb somewhat. I think the latest numbers I've seen from the Canada West Foundation show that trend is starting to change. The trend line is like this, but there's a little tail on the end, which is 2006, where the number is starting to change.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Of course, that has to be a problem for Alberta now. When people are moving out of Alberta to come back to Saskatchewan, you compound the problems in Alberta as well, with their shortage of workers.

[John Hopkins]

Exactly.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

We just need more people, more workers.

[Eric Johansen]

I was simply going to reiterate your point.

We did export people for a generation or two, which is why we got this peculiar demographic structure where the working-age population is unusually low. It's kind of big at the top, hollowed out in the middle, and then big at the bottom. A couple of years of immigration doesn't change that. You would need a substantial length of time.

The fact is that although we have it more severely in Saskatchewan, the same issue is facing the whole country. In fact, it is facing most of the western world.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

It is. But I'm from Newfoundland. When would you ever see in Newfoundland the “help wanted” signs in business windows? It's actually happening back home. I've never seen it in my lifetime, except over the last two- or three-year period. The economy has improved to the extent now that we're actually looking for workers, and most of our workers are out here. Most of our skilled workers are out in Alberta, apart from Ontario.

[A voice]

They'll come back.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

They will come back, but that compounds the problem again, naturally.

[Eric Johansen]

That would lead me to the point that part of the solution has to be just more workers in Canada, and that means foreign workers, and hence our view that we should find mechanisms to get people here more efficiently and increase employer access to them.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

No question.

Ed.

[Ed Komarnicki, Conservative, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

I just want to make a few comments and one question, and I'll pass it over to Mr. Batters for further questions.

I certainly understand that our program as it now, with skilled workers having to wait years as opposed to weeks or months, is untenable. We need to make some changes and reform, which we're intending to do, and certainly I've taken note that settlement services should include the temporary foreign workers.

But what you've done here in Saskatchewan, and perhaps many provinces haven't yet had to do this, is use the provincial nominee program in a way that allows you to direct immigration and newcomers to the points that you need in terms of your labour market needs and for settlement as well.

I found it very intriguing that at the meeting yesterday in Alberta, they wondered how you transition temporary foreign workers into actually becoming newcomers and settlers in our country. You said this morning that you can do that through the provincial nominee program, and you've said that anyone who has been here for six months, I take it, as a temporary foreign worker can apply through the provincial nominee program to become a permanent resident. Essentially, we look at issues like security and health, but under the provincial nominee program, you direct the people to where you want them to go. I think that's a grand scheme for provinces, Canada, and Canadians to take advantage of that provision.

Having said that, Manitoba has been particularly successful in the provincial nominee program, and Saskatchewan has caught on to that. It's increasing in numbers, and I'm sure they'll look back in five years and see they've done very well.

One thing they have in the provincial nominee program in Manitoba that perhaps you might not have in Saskatchewan, and that other provinces might want to consider, is a series of types of newcomers they would nominate, and then they have a provision that deals with the general class of people that you might not otherwise specifically include. So you might look at, from the Saskatchewan point of view, ensuring that there is a more liberal approach in terms of who can come in and widening the capacity of the province to do that, and if the feds take off the limits on the provincial nominee or amounts you can nominate, it's a grand way for the province to actually direct its immigration.

I commend you for what you're doing, because you've made an important patch between temporary foreign workers and permanent residents, and I'm saying that there is an ability for you to go even further if we take the cap off the numbers, and I understand we have.

So I'm certainly excited by what I've seen in Saskatchewan and by what the government's doing, and I encourage you to go even further.

I pass you to Mr. Batters.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Good. Thanks, Ed.

Mr. Dave—

[Colleen Beaumier, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

Did you hear him? Was he not advising the people of Saskatchewan to vote Liberal in their selection?

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

More liberal programs, he said.

[Colleen Beaumier, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

I think that's what he said.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Ed Komarnicki, Conservative, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

Out of 14 members in Saskatchewan, there's one unfortunate one who still is...[Inaudible—Editor]--

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Ed Komarnicki, Conservative, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

--and won't be for long.