Evidence of meeting #21 for Citizenship and Immigration in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was saskatchewan.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Gurcan Kocdag  National Board, Canadian Manufacturers and Exporters
Jan Katerynych  Human Resources Manager and In-House Counsel, Kramer Ltd.
Steve McLellan  As an Individual
Tara Blanchard  As an Individual
Darcy Dietrich  Member-at-large, Canadian Immigrant Settlement Sector Alliance (CISSA)
Olukayode  Kay) Adebogun (Senior Immigration Consultant, Culture Connect Int'l Ltd

2:50 p.m.

As an Individual

Tara Blanchard

All of our clients, immigrants and refugees, come as permanent residents of Canada. The only difference between a permanent resident of Canada and a Canadian citizen is the right to vote.

My clients who are immigrants or refugees have every right, good or bad, extended to permanent residents. Temporary workers are different. It's not as though they've done something wrong. But an employer could take advantage of them. He could remind them that they're only here on a temporary basis and could be sent back.

I have to agree with your comment. I haven't heard of any temporary workers not being treated the same as other workers. I know of no examples, really, in Saskatchewan.

All I can say is that maybe more efforts could be made to bring people in on a permanent basis, rather than bringing them in temporarily.

2:50 p.m.

Member-at-large, Canadian Immigrant Settlement Sector Alliance (CISSA)

Darcy Dietrich

It is something new for us to have significant numbers of temporary workers. I attended the last ISSA conference in Alberta, and I went to a session just to learn a little more. I heard a lot about some of the challenges they're facing.

I think we still have time in Saskatchewan to implement some supports, some processes. Some of the stories I heard in Alberta were new to me. For instance, I heard that some employers might buy a house and have maybe 10 immigrants living in the house, all paying a lot of rent. My understanding is that nobody is monitoring that situation.

I don't know whether there's any way, whether some governing body could be put in place to do spot monitoring to make sure that employers don't take advantage of temporary workers. I know something of the kind has been done to control immigration consultants.

I've been talking along these lines with respect to health and education services for children and youth. We still have time in Saskatchewan to make sure that we have the supports necessary to ensure successful outcomes, but I'm a little worried.

2:50 p.m.

Bloc

The Vice-Chair Bloc Thierry St-Cyr

I have to interrupt you now.

Mr. Batters has the floor for three minutes.

2:50 p.m.

Conservative

Dave Batters Conservative Palliser, SK

I want to thank you both for appearing today on very short notice and sharing some of your insights. You do excellent work. I've toured your facilities, and they're impressive organizations with impressive staff members. You truly make a great deal of difference in people's lives.

Tara, I was happy to hear you back up the comment I made this morning. Neither I nor my office staff have encountered temporary foreign workers claiming to have been abused. It's a phenomenon that we're not yet familiar with in Saskatchewan. Let's hope that we're never familiar with it.

2:50 p.m.

As an Individual

2:50 p.m.

Conservative

Dave Batters Conservative Palliser, SK

This committee is looking at a vast array of different issues, but one of the things we have been focusing on most is the labour shortage that currently exists in Canada, particularly in Saskatchewan now. Our economy is on the verge of a boom like we've never seen before. The growth potential in Saskatchewan is limitless, and I talk about that with great pride, but right now, in terms of the backlog.... The Liberals grew the backlog in immigrants from 50,000 only a few short years ago to between 850,000 and 900,000 people today, so that's the bottleneck we're looking at.

Today we've had groups of people before us who are desperately looking for specific skilled workers. We've also had groups before us looking for semi-skilled workers. A gentleman from Tim Hortons was here talking about the fact that he cannot find people to pour coffee for $10 an hour in his Tim Hortons. This is a desperate state of affairs right now.

I'd like you to comment a little bit on what you see. You're seeing the federal government going through some efforts toward legislation right now with Bill C-50 to try to end this bottleneck, to be able to satisfy the labour needs, to be able to fill those needs as appropriate. We know we need doctors and nurses. We also need construction workers, welders, and tradespeople. We desperately need truck drivers here in Moose Jaw. We need semi-skilled workers, as I have referred to as well.

The current wait list is six years. It's projected to be 10 years by 2012 if it's not addressed now. We are trying to take immediate steps right now to flip it around and start to change the whole pendulum, so instead of the waiting lists getting longer, they get shorter. That is going to mean that the government will be able to pick and choose based on the needs for employment here in our country, which makes perfect sense to me. If we need truck drivers, we're going to go out and get truck drivers. If we need doctors, likewise. If you have a doctor who is number 300,000 on the list, who is an obstetrician/gynecologist, maybe that person would soon then become number 300 on the list, because we need that person in a certain community to perform those activities.

I'd just like to hear both of your opinions as to what our government is doing in terms of trying to address specific labour needs that are desperate right now.

I want to add, before you respond, with your indulgence, Mr. Chair, that we're not at all talking with this proposed legislation about affecting anything to do with refugees or family reunification efforts—nothing—but we are going to try to pick the labour that is required and expedite that process, because it's out of control and it's getting worse and worse. In Australia, six months is the processing time for immigrants; in Canada it is six years.

I wonder if you could comment on that.

2:55 p.m.

As an Individual

Tara Blanchard

Yes, six years is ridiculous.

First of all, I saw Minister Finley on Canada AM when she was discussing this, and she said they were going to start moving some of the caseloads from these offices that are extremely busy to ones that aren't as busy. That's a really wise idea.

I've never been to a visa office, but we do go to national seminars where we have our colleagues from these offices come to present. They say they input your file, and two years later is when they look at your file—look at it, not even start processing it. That needs to be changed.

As you said, I totally agree that we should fill the need where it is and start expediting these applications.

We need to talk to the guy at Tim Hortons, because we have clients who can pour coffee for $10 an hour.

2:55 p.m.

Conservative

Dave Batters Conservative Palliser, SK

Absolutely, you should.

2:55 p.m.

As an Individual

Tara Blanchard

We need to get out in our community. We've done it already, but you can't get out enough in your own community and publicize yourself and tell them what services we offer and what kind of people we have.

2:55 p.m.

Conservative

Dave Batters Conservative Palliser, SK

Tara, please do that.

2:55 p.m.

As an Individual

2:55 p.m.

Conservative

Dave Batters Conservative Palliser, SK

The individual just presented today at this panel, and I can get you his name. I have his business card. He was saying they have real problems finding people to pour coffee for $10 an hour.

The gentleman's name is Chris Thomas with Tim Hortons in Calgary. You can get that information from the committee.

We have slaughter plants that are closing. The Nature Valley Farms slaughter plant here in Saskatchewan, in Wolseley, I believe, is closing its doors, or is contemplating that. It is not my riding, so I'm paraphrasing what I've heard from one of my colleagues. They're contemplating shutting the doors just because they don't have the workers to do the jobs. We're talking about $25-an-hour jobs, good paying jobs, but they don't have the people to fill the spots on the kill floor, for lack of a better term.

Definitely, if you could reach out to these individuals....

2:55 p.m.

As an Individual

Tara Blanchard

I can talk about one initiative that Moose Jaw undertook.

A lot of our refugee clients don't come with proper documentation. Because of the situation of having to flee their country so quickly, they don't have documents, they don't have birth certificates, they don't have high school diplomas.

XL Beef, a few years ago, was crying for workers. You had to have a grade 12 diploma to work at XL Beef.

Well, we had clients whose immigration papers, which were the only documents they had, said “12” under “years of education”. Some visa officer had believed them or had seen documentation at one point and had written on that paper that they had 12 years.

We went to XL Beef and, working with them, said, “Is there not something we can do? You need the workers. We have the people. There is a gap here.” They relaxed the regulation a little bit and said that if they could prove they had 12 years, or a grade 12 diploma—either/or.... We have a lot of clients who have been working for the past three or four years at XL Beef, and they're very happy there. That's just a small example of what can be done to accommodate people and to get more workers.

3 p.m.

Conservative

Dave Batters Conservative Palliser, SK

Thanks for all your efforts and for the great work you do in Moose Jaw and Regina. It's greatly appreciated by everyone in our province.

3 p.m.

As an Individual

3 p.m.

Bloc

The Vice-Chair Bloc Thierry St-Cyr

Thank you very much for having taken the time to come to testify before us at such short notice.

The reason why I let Mr. Batters go blithely on past the amount of time he had been allotted is that the next member of our panel has still not arrived, if I am not mistaken. He was scheduled for 3:30 p.m. and it was not possible to reach him in order to ask him to come earlier.

The committee will have to decide what it wants to do. I suppose that we could perhaps agree to have a short session as soon as he arrives, and hope that he arrives a little earlier. Is that agreeable for everyone? Do not go too far, because if he arrives before 3:30 p.m., we will start again right away so that we wrap up as quickly as possible.

We will take a recess.

3:15 p.m.

Bloc

The Vice-Chair Bloc Thierry St-Cyr

As we agreed earlier, we are going to start a thirty-minute session right now.

If you want to have translation to French you can use those.

You can speak in French or in English.

You have seven minutes to make your presentation; the remaining 23 minutes will be for questions and comments.

April 2nd, 2008 / 3:20 p.m.

Olukayode Kay) Adebogun (Senior Immigration Consultant, Culture Connect Int'l Ltd

Thank you for the opportunity to address this committee on some of the issues affecting the immigration consulting industry in Canada. I'm an immigration consultant with Culture Connect immigration consultants in Regina and a member in good standing of the Canadian Society of Immigration Consultants.

I've been a member of this organization from its inception, but I've been working as an immigration agent and consultant for almost 15 years. Certainly, I was happy when an organization was created to regulate immigration consultants. My first reaction was that the public interest was finally being protected and that consultants could be regulated in Canada and abroad.

Alas, it appears that CSIC, the organization charged with the responsibility, has not lived up to my high expectations. There are many consultants practising today who are not members of CSIC, and some of these consultants provide services that cannot be justified. The question is, why are these consultants not members of CSIC? While some do not have justifiable reasons, others have legitimate, although inexcusable, reasons for not joining the organization. CSIC is not yet a self-governing profession, and the operation of phantom consultants is being fuelled by the actions of CSIC.

I'm not before the committee to destroy CSIC. I'm here to advise the committee that CSIC is not fulfilling the mandate intended for it by Parliament.

Why would I say this as a member of the organization? CSIC's initiative is suffering greatly because of actions and decisions taken by the initial board members. The initial board members have not delivered a self-governing profession, as was their task. Rather, they have usurped authority in all areas making up a self-governing profession and have denied members their rightful role. The go-it-alone attitude is, in my view, destroying the profession.

Certainly, we will say that in theory the board is accountable to its members. In 2007, in the aftermath of the Toronto Star exposé, a CSIC spokesman remarked that “evaluating CSIC is a job for its members”. But in practice that's not the case.

CSIC operates without input from its members, and in fact the board operates a dictatorship system of government. There is a huge suppression of members who have voluntarily, in the interest of the public and the profession, submitted themselves to self-regulation.

Here are some of my reasons for coming to this conclusion. First, CSIC by-laws stipulate that an AGM must be held in person and any amendment must be approved by its members. The board unilaterally decided otherwise and has not held the 2007-08 AGM to date. CSIC chose an electronic AGM, though the bylaw was against it. It does not allow members' participation. Members could not speak or make contributions. The meeting was eventually cancelled for lack of a quorum.

I agree that an electronic meeting is possible today, but the way it was organized by CSIC was a failure. Unfortunately, CSIC has failed in these areas.

Second, the initial directors were appointed to run the affairs of CSIC before members were able to complete membership prerequisites. They unilaterally removed the right of members to call for a special meeting, as is the practice in most regulatory bodies in Canada.

A third concern is the lack of transparency. This relates to other matters you're dealing with: the issue of governance within the Canadian Society of Immigration Consultants and the issue of unlicensed consultants. The board has not been forthcoming in providing information, and there are serious questions with respect to the administration of this society.

Personally, I have initiated and I've also been part of several letters and petitions to address this concern with the board. I've written several e-mails and letters to the board. It appears that all these appeals fell on deaf ears. Today, members do not have opportunities to see the minutes of the board meetings.

CSIC year-end is October 31, but up to today no financial statement has been given to any members. Another concern is the excessive spending by the board and inadequate explanation on the spending. The board approved its own compensation without members' input. The compensation was then enshrined in the bylaw without members' consent. The financial statements are presented in such a way that it is difficult to know the content of the expenses, and CSIC—in this case the board—is not forthcoming in providing explanations to members when asked.

To support the board's excessive compensation and flamboyant travel expenses, members are also charged an unreasonable annual membership fee and additional fees to attend mandatory continuous professional development. In an attempt to have a monopoly on the educational consultants, CSIC allocated greater CPD points to its own program and significantly reduced CPD points for other educational programs that have greater value and content than that of CSIC. In this way, the board undermines valid industry initiatives, to its shame. Programs with similar or better content organized by other organizations, like the Canadian Association of Professional Immigration Consultants and the Canadian Bar Association, charge significantly less than CSIC's programs, and members are made to pay $800 or more to watch a video of some of the events.

Though there are other options, CSIC chose a location for its office that is very expensive, on Bay Street--

3:25 p.m.

Bloc

The Vice-Chair Bloc Thierry St-Cyr

Mr. Adebogun, your seven minutes are up. We now move to the period for members' questions and comments. You can use your answers to finish your presentation.

Mr. Carrier, you have seven minutes.

3:25 p.m.

Bloc

Robert Carrier Bloc Alfred-Pellan, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good afternoon, Mr. Adebogun. I am pleased to meet you. We have already discussed this matter of immigration consultants employed by the Canadian Society of Immigration Consultants. You are now confirming, in fact, that this society operates very badly, that it lacks respect for its members, that it charges exorbitant prices and that it incurs unjustified expenses.

You say that you have written a number of letters and started petitions. Were they sent to the minister responsible for this organization, the Minister of Immigration?

3:25 p.m.

Olukayode (Kay) Adebogun

Thank you for your question.

It's on record that I did send some e-mails to the minister's office at some point. Some of the documents delivered to the Canadian Society of Immigration Consultants were delivered by Fedex, paid for by my organization. With some of these petitions that were written, I would write them, send them to some members, people would sign, and we'd send them to them.

To your question directly, some communications were sent to the minister's office; some were delivered by e-mail, by fax, and by regular mail to the society.

3:25 p.m.

Bloc

Robert Carrier Bloc Alfred-Pellan, QC

Could you tell us approximately when? Was it very recently? Was it in 2007 or 2006?

3:25 p.m.

Olukayode (Kay) Adebogun

We started sending these things out in 2005, 2006, and last year there were a few documents we also sent out. Of course, if you require some of these documents, I could get them from my computer.

3:25 p.m.

Bloc

Robert Carrier Bloc Alfred-Pellan, QC

To your knowledge, did you receive any response to your attempts to communicate with the minister's office? Did you at least get an acknowledgement that they had been received and a commitment to solve the problem?

3:25 p.m.

Olukayode (Kay) Adebogun

No. From the minister's office, no, and even from CSIC. Sometimes they will ignore; other times they will give a blanket response. The other part that's funny now is that they've made it a crime basically for members to speak against the organization. That's now considered part of professional misconduct, which I have challenged.

We're polite. I believe in writing politely to them and saying the right thing, but I also feel strongly that the board cannot contain that.

I ran as a member of the board before, because I thought by being part of it we could;d effect some changes. Unfortunately, I did not win, but that's not the problem. My rationale for running for the office was to make sure that at least as a voice we could say no. One of the things I said in my platform at that point was that I chose not to be paid, but I would work with the board and I did not want to be paid.