Citizenship and Immigration Committee on Feb. 14th, 2012

[Peter Hill]

The CCR is an advocacy group on behalf of refugees, so they bring to our attention a range of matters, including cases that they feel deserve a review. They also engage us in a dialogue on the overall system, so we attend their annual conferences. They're a partner in many of our discussions on how to improve the immigration system.

[Rick Dykstra, Conservative, St. Catharines, ON]

When you have conversations with them, what kind of detail do they provide you in terms of advice? Is it focused on the assistance for refugees, or is it focused on the overall model or principle that you operate under?

[Peter Hill]

I would say it's both. They do bring cases to our attention, but they also provide advice and commentary and observations based on the overall immigration and refugee system, our practices, and how we discharge our mandate. That's the full range.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Thank you.

You're next.

[Paulina Ayala, NDP, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

Good afternoon, everyone.

I have a slight doubt. You say that the idea is to avoid refugee claims. That is why people must take the biometric test. You also say that U.S. citizens are not required to take the test. Therefore, Americans can come into the country with a false passport. But that is not a crime and there is no problem because they are Americans. That means that certain countries are being targeted. That worries me in terms of security.

In addition, what is the accuracy rate for biometric measures such as facial recognition and fingerprints?

Finally, what is the percentage of individuals arriving in Canada each year whose declared identity is not their true identity? Do you have any statistics on that?

[Claudette Deschênes]

I don't know whether we have any percentages or data on that. I will take down your three questions and try to obtain that information for you.

A lot of work has been done in order to understand why that is done. So there is probably some data available, but I don't have it with me.

[Paulina Ayala, NDP, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

Something else worries me.

[Pierre Sabourin]

I may have information that could be somewhat useful to you.

Out of the approximately 93 million people who return to or enter Canada, 75 million have their identity verified at the border. We have a system that allows us to take their passport and check their identity, but that is done at ports of entry. There are still several million people whose identity we cannot confirm because we do not have the required system. Therefore, out of the 93 million people entering Canada, 75 million must submit to the first level of identity verification.

[Paulina Ayala, NDP, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

Unless I am mistaken, that system will only apply to certain countries. It won't be used for everyone. So there is already some discrimination involved.

In addition, you say that people must take those tests before entering Canada. However, what happens if people come from a country in political turmoil or something similar and they do not even have the technology needed to take all those tests? Who will ensure they can take the biometric tests? People must take those tests before they arrive in Canada, right?

If the country of origin doesn't have the required system, who will install the machines? Will the private sector take care of that? There is a risk involved in information gathering.

[Claudette Deschênes]

The project was developed so that the Canadian government would have machines installed in the countries to collect clients' biometric data.

[Paulina Ayala, NDP, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

Will the machines be set up in embassies?

[Claudette Deschênes]

Visa application centres will be the first option. Embassies will also be equipped with machines. However, we would prefer that biometric tests be conducted in embassies to a lesser extent.

[Paulina Ayala, NDP, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

Visa centres?

[Claudette Deschênes]

Yes.

[Paulina Ayala, NDP, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

Are you talking about government organizations or private companies working for an embassy?

I went to Venezuela, to a bilateral meeting, and the embassador explained to me that private organizations working for the embassy were in charge of reviewing visa applicant files in in that country. I think that's dangerous because information is being gathered about citizens.

[Claudette Deschênes]

Private organizations will be in contact with us. In addition, we will have a system in place for....

[Paulina Ayala, NDP, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

What right do we have here, in Canada, to allow foreign private organizations to collect information about the private lives of people from other countries?

As a Canadian, I would not like that to happen to me or my children.

[Claudette Deschênes]

We developed this project in close cooperation with the Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada. Private companies will not have access to clients' biometric data. A system will be used to send that data directly to Canada. However, the company will be there to gather the information.

[Paulina Ayala, NDP, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

Identity theft is a global reality. I think that's extremely dangerous.

[Claudette Deschênes]

Some countries have already used this system. Great Britain, Australia and France have used it. Therefore, we will not be the first to make use of it.

[Paulina Ayala, NDP, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

The issue is not whether we are the first, the second or the third to use this system. The issue is that information about the private lives of others is being gathered and shared. Information theft can even happen in the police. It can happen and it is dangerous.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

We have to move on.

[Paulina Ayala, NDP, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

Is my time up?

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Madam Stoddart will be coming on Thursday. If you're here, some of those privacy questions could be asked of her.

[Paulina Ayala, NDP, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

Okay.