Citizenship and Immigration Committee on May 7th, 2012

[John Weston, Conservative, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

Thank you.

Do you think the biometrics aspect of this act will help us at least make progress in this area?

[LCol Walter Perchal]

I think biometrics is very much a way of the future. Biometrics is something a number of countries have adopted, and I think it's inevitable over time that biometrics are going to become a global standard.

I think the dilemma of biometrics is, again, the protection of information, the rights of the individual. Having said that, my own estimate, in a paper I've written for limited distribution, is that DNA is going to become the standard base for biometrics used around the world.

Now, that has some scary implications for some, and certainly it may...but we ultimately need a universal standard that allows us to understand what a document from one country means in relationship to the person who is representing him or her self. What is that standard going to be?

[John Weston, Conservative, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

Thank you.

Detention provisions are a controversial aspect of the proposed bill. Our minister and senior officials from the department have said that detention is there to help us show identification and screen against security risks.

Would either you, Mr. Perchal, or you, Mr. Elcock, like to comment on the necessity of doing that in the case of these irregular arrivals?

[LCol Walter Perchal]

My view on detention is that it's a function of risk. If there is a risk, if there is a perceived risk or there is a potential risk, you err on the side of caution. I said this in my earlier presentation, the first responsibility of government is the protection of the nation and its citizens. Again, if there is potential risk, you simply cannot allow that risk for whatever reason—be it reasons of terrorism, reasons of criminality, or, as Admiral Loren said, reasons of illness—to simply wander into the population at large.

Again, that is in the context of the provisions of law that ensure the rights of individuals, but clearly this is a risk-based decision.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Unless Mr. Menegakis yields, your time has expired.

[Costas Menegakis, Conservative, Richmond Hill, ON]

Do you want to finish? Go ahead if you want to finish your thought.

[John Weston, Conservative, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

I was going to say that in the case of the two vessels, we had 41 persons detained who were revealed to have either security issues, or in the case of five of them, terrorist designations. That's out of a total number, I think, of 600 and something.

How would you rate those numbers in terms of the type of risk against which we need to take measures such as detention?

[LCol Walter Perchal]

That's a difficult question because it's an anecdotal situation. We've had two ships.

The question, to me, has to be framed in the context of individual cases. If we don't have any information about an individual, if our agencies and institutions that control our borders feel that there is a risk, they need to have measures in place to manage that risk. We cannot simply open the door and leave it wide open. We can't do that.

Now, all of that again is within the context of the provisions in law that ensure the rights of individuals. This is not indefinite incarceration, nor should it be. Regarding should we allow any one suspect of any of the three conditions I stated—terrorism, crime, or potential illness—to simply wander into the public at large, my personal view is no. I think that would be foolish.

[John Weston, Conservative, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

Thank you, sir.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

You have three and a half minutes.

[Costas Menegakis, Conservative, Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you for appearing before us.

Currently under Bill C-31, penalties are only imposed on shipowners. I'd like your thoughts on whether you think that goes far enough. What about people who arrive on planes?

Would you care to take a shot at that, Mr. Elcock?

[Ward Elcock]

The focus is more on mass arrivals than it is on planes. Having said that, the reality is that in many cases, people who arrive on a plane are not necessarily smuggled. They may have smuggled themselves, but they may not be part of a large smuggling ring.

I'm not sure the same things.... The focus on smuggling was to look at people who arrive.... People may be legitimate refugees if they arrive on an airplane. The purpose of much of the legislation was to deal with events where human smuggling was involved. You had people who were smuggling for, in some cases, a lot of money.

[Costas Menegakis, Conservative, Richmond Hill, ON]

We've invested a lot of effort to stop human smuggling from occurring abroad. Certainly you've done a lot of work in that regard.

What are the consequences if we make these investments, but we don't have teeth locally to stop human smuggling?

[Ward Elcock]

I think we've actually been quite effective in stopping it. There haven't been any arrivals since the Sun Sea. It's probably unwise to claim that we are entirely responsible for that, but we have some say in that happening.

[Costas Menegakis, Conservative, Richmond Hill, ON]

When the minister was here last week, he said that Canada is not prepared for mass arrivals. He said:

The current detention review periods under IRPA were not designed to deal with mass arrivals or the sorts of cases involving complex human smuggling operations of the scale that have recently targeted Canada.

In what ways do other countries that are more susceptible to human smuggling, like Australia, handle mass arrivals?

[Ward Elcock]

The Australian situation unfortunately is very different from ours in the sense that the arrivals who are being smuggled into Australia by boat come in much smaller vessels from a much broader coastline. Indonesia is not very far away from northern Australia, and in particular, Christmas Island and Ashmore Reef.

The issues that the Australians face are distinctly different. I think they would estimate that their efforts at prevention probably deter no more than a third of the potential arrivals. That may vary. It may be higher. In Canada's case so far, with the mass arrivals we've seen, the ships and vessels are somewhat more easily targeted and dealt with.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Thank you.

You have time for one question, Ms. Sitsabaiesan.

[Rathika Sitsabaiesan, NDP, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

One question, okay.

Along those lines, you said no new arrivals have come in since the Sun Sea, and we are not to take full credit for it.

So is it correct, Mr. Elcock, that you were sent to Thailand to work with the Thai government and the Thai police to deter asylum seekers from seeking to come to Canada?

[Ward Elcock]

No, Mr. Chairman, I didn't quite say that. I said—

[Rathika Sitsabaiesan, NDP, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

No, I'm not saying you said that. I'm asking, were you in Thailand to work with them to deter asylum seekers from seeking to come to Canada?

[Ward Elcock]

I've been in a number of countries working with countries to try to target the organizers of smuggling ventures—

[Rathika Sitsabaiesan, NDP, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

[Inaudible--Editor]

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

You know, you've got to let him finish his sentence, please.

[Rathika Sitsabaiesan, NDP, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

Yes.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Thank you.

Go ahead, sir.