Citizenship and Immigration Committee on March 21st, 2013

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

Out of all these terrorists, how many, do you think, have dual citizenship?

[C/Supt Joe Oliver]

That is information the RCMP does not track.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

When you think of our Canadian citizenship, do you feel there is an apparent double standard? We're saying, in this legislation that we're talking about, that if you have dual citizenship—Mr. Mulcair, the leader of the NDP, has dual citizenship, as do others—you are going to be treated differently if you commit an act of terrorism than will other individuals who don't have Canadian citizenship.

Do you have any thoughts on that at all, or are you allowed to have any thoughts on that that you can share with us?

[C/Supt Joe Oliver]

I think that's probably a question best addressed to the minister, to CIC, or to the sponsor of the bill.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

I'm trying to prove a bit of a point here, that we do have terrorism. There's maybe a need for us to have a healthy debate on the issue, but a lot of time constraints have been put on us.

With regard to the issue of citizenship and fast-tracking it for members of the Canadian Forces, I'm wondering if you feel that this might be a worthy thing to do. One of the thoughts I came across, especially, Mr. Oliver, when I saw you all dressed up in your RCMP attire, was whether the RCMP would oppose that. Does the RCMP have landed immigrants as part of its membership?

[C/Supt Joe Oliver]

I researched that, because I knew it was possibly going to be a question.

The RCMP Act has provisions similar to those of the National Defence Act, which the commissioner.... The basic criterion is to be a Canadian citizen, but in the case where there are an insufficient number of Canadians to fulfill those roles, non-Canadians could.

Our HR people said we have not run into a situation yet whereby we haven't had a sufficient number of Canadians. So to this point, I'm not aware of anybody in recent history being appointed who was not Canadian.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

Our whole complement of RCMP officers is Canadian citizens.

[C/Supt Joe Oliver]

That is my understanding.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

I did not know that. I learned something today about that.

[C/Supt Joe Oliver]

The members are appointed under the RCMP Act.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

Is that right? You threw me off my line of questioning. Now I'm more interested in asking the minister a question.

[A voice]

And it will now be a better world.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

It's already a better world. Well, there you go.

At the end of the day, Mr. Chair, I think I had my questions answered. I appreciate your presentation here this afternoon.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

I find this committee is never dull.

Mr. Opitz.

[Ted Opitz, Conservative, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I promise not to apply any thought control.

And by the way, your uniform is spectacular: 4th Battalion Provost—I'm glad you're here—with four battle honours for the RCMP.

Mr. Peirce, when you were speaking to Mr. Leung, you were just getting into discussing affiliated groups. I'd like you to finish that answer, if you wouldn't mind.

[Michael Peirce]

Where I was going with those comments is that we have now a more diffuse international threat, because al-Qaeda-related affiliates, such as al-Shabaab, al-Qaeda in the Islamic Maghreb, and al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula, now are the sites of power and sites of activity, by and large, for al-Qaeda and for carrying out terrorist activities.

This means there's a regional distribution of the threat, and that diffusion, creating a regional distribution, leads to a greater risk of individuals travelling. Now there are a greater number of areas to travel, a greater number of affiliated al-Qaeda organizations to join, and that has increased the risk.

To conclude the answer, we see an increased risk as a result of that diffusion, and an increased risk in particular of Canadians travelling to engage with those organizations.

[Ted Opitz, Conservative, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

I appreciate the challenges you have. You're right. The service is not all-seeing and all-knowing. It's hard to know what lurks in people's souls and minds sometimes when they want to get radicalized.

How many people would you estimate were radicalized last year?

[Michael Peirce]

It's very difficult to define.

Individuals who are radicalized are not in themselves targets of the service. CSIS is concerned with individuals who develop extremist beliefs, who are at risk of carrying out terrorist-related activity, or who act in support of terrorist-related activity. So radicalization by itself is not the trigger.

The factors that go into radicalization are multi-faceted. As I said in my earlier comments, there is no prototypical terrorist. We see different communities. We see differences between Europe and North America in terms of radicalization. Then you take it to the next step: what are the triggers that could lead to violent extremism?

While we can catalogue some of the indicators, it is what I refer to as a “chaotic system”. You cannot predict the moment at which an individual will turn from being radicalized to being ready to engage in violent extremist activity. So you have to investigate their activities to determine where they're at, as opposed to simply profiling on the basis of indicators.

[Ted Opitz, Conservative, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

I guess that's where the RCMP and other law enforcement in Canada come in, when we have people who are radicalizing or who you know of through intelligence agencies within police forces.

How do you deal with these guys? You have to keep an eye on them. You have to monitor. What does the RCMP do in this case?

[C/Supt Joe Oliver]

Consistent with the counter-terrorism strategy, there are several layers of approach. One is with the objective of preventing individuals from becoming radicalized. Part of that is through the national security outreach program the RCMP has, where we engage the community and try to provide a counter-narrative. When there are indications that individuals may be supporting terrorists or are about to participate in terrorist activity themselves, there are a variety of methods the RCMP would use to try to capture the evidence to support a prosecution in Canada and as a result try to prevent an attack or a terrorist event or the supporting of a terrorist group from actually taking place.

We've seen that in cases where.... In fact, in March 2011 the RCMP, in partnership with the Toronto Police Service, learned information about an individual who was planning to leave Canada to participate. That was the belief, and that individual was arrested before departing from Canada.

So there are efforts to prevent even departures from Canada.

[Ted Opitz, Conservative, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

That was a successful intervention.

Is there still time?

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

You've got a minute.

[Ted Opitz, Conservative, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Okay, great.

Do we know how many people are currently overseas participating in camps or in other groups? Is there any idea on the numbers we might have? I know it's not an accurate number.

[Michael Peirce]

It is very difficult to determine numbers. The director recently referred to dozens—in the range of 45 to 60 individuals identified.

It is a challenge because we will get reporting, for instance, that says, “There's a Canadian here”, and we don't know if this is a new individual, because it just says it's a Canadian, or whether it's one of the individuals we've already confirmed. So there's always a risk of double counting.

There's a risk of inaccuracy. People are referred to as Canadians because of their accent or because of their references to hockey playoffs or something along those lines. I jest about hockey playoffs, but there are all kinds of factors that may lead to a conclusion that individuals are Canadian and in fact they aren't. If we're just getting this information from a foreign agency, it will be difficult to corroborate.

There are also some difficulties about travel and time and where these individuals are. That said, our number is roughly in the 45 to 60 area, so dozens of individuals.

[Ted Opitz, Conservative, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Wouldn't that be something, if al-Qaeda followed the NHL, eh?

Those 45 to 60 individuals, they are all at high likelihood of coming into conflict, armed conflict, with Canadians.