Evidence of meeting #3 for Citizenship and Immigration in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was program.
A video is available from Parliament.
11:50 a.m.
NDP
The Vice-Chair NDP Lysane Blanchette-Lamothe
Thank you, Mr. Griffith.
Now we'll go to our questions round. Mr. Menegakis, you have seven minutes.
11:50 a.m.
Conservative
Costas Menegakis Conservative Richmond Hill, ON
Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you to our witnesses for being here today and for your presentations.
My first question will be to you, Ms. Anson-Cartwright. In a previous meeting, this committee heard from Department of Citizenship and Immigration officials who stated that the key objectives of the new EOI system, this recruiting system, is to improve application management and reduce processing backlogs, to increase the labour market responsiveness of the immigration system, and to strengthen the provincial, territorial, and employer role.
Would you expand on how this new recruitment model will change the employer role?
11:55 a.m.
Director, Skills Policy, Canadian Chamber of Commerce
Yes. Thank you very much, Mr. Menegakis.
It's absolutely critical that we keep in mind two aspects of this. On the one hand, there's the timeliness and efficiency of processing immigrants to come, and on the other hand, it's the fact that we're talking about permanent residency and there are certain obligations and expectations that we need to keep in mind.
From an employer point of view, when one does identify a candidate, a foreign-trained individual overseas that you'd like to recruit into a job, obviously there's a timeliness and an efficiency consideration. We're very much encouraged that we would be looking at, potentially, six months, but ideally less than six months, as other systems in Australia and New Zealand have achieved—shorter timeframes for that processing once an individual has been offered a position. The timeliness is absolutely critical, because we're not achieving that. As mentioned previously by the minister and others, the federal skilled worker program, for example, is not perhaps as useful a recruitment program to employers when they're seeking foreign-trained individuals, once they cannot find Canadians or others in the domestic labour market.
On the other aspect of recognizing that this is permanent residency we're talking about, there are concerns from our members that everything needed to be done in terms of due diligence around the employer is at the back end of that system. We're very mindful that there are obligations, and those have to be fully adhered to.
I think there's huge scope in allowing employers to have an opportunity to look at candidates who have expressed interest in coming to Canada, who have passed the first round of criteria that are required, and make that assessment as to whether in fact they would meet their needs.
Thank you.
11:55 a.m.
Conservative
Costas Menegakis Conservative Richmond Hill, ON
Thank you very much.
Mr. Griffith, Diana MacKay, from the Conference Board of Canada, recently said this about the EOI system:
The introduction of the Expression of Interest system represents an important opportunity for employers needing people with advanced skills and for communities seeking to attract new citizens to access—quickly and at low cost—the full pool of 250,000 newcomers to Canada each year. If employers take up the opportunity, the new system will dramatically improve Canada's competitiveness.
That's what she said.
Since the engineering sector is an incredibly highly skilled sector that has a need for employees, let me digress a little bit by saying that this past summer I attended a round table discussion in Edmonton with the Edmonton Chamber of Commerce. We heard a lot about acute labour needs in that region of the country. There was one company there that said that if they could find them they would hire 1,500 engineers the next day. They simply could not find them.
Can you comment on how this program will specifically benefit the engineering sector in Canada?
11:55 a.m.
Director, Education, Engineers Canada
Absolutely. Thank you for the question.
As I mentioned in my opening remarks, our intent is to push as much as we can in the licensing process overseas, so they will have met certain of the criteria for licensure at the same time as meeting the criteria for immigration.That will reduce the amount of time that people would actually need to take to be recognized and get their licences when they do come to Canada. It involves ensuring that their academic qualifications are assessed and accepted, and with our proposed competency assessment model, their work experience would be assessed in a different manner to how it's done today, where it's more time-based—four years of experience meeting certain criteria.
So I think there's great value in ensuring that those individuals who have the specialized skills and have met those criteria will have also been able to have part of the criteria for licensure completed as well and be able to get into the workforce that much faster.
Noon
Conservative
Costas Menegakis Conservative Richmond Hill, ON
Thank you.
My question is for Ms. Anson-Cartwright. In its publication “Canada's Labour Market Puts in a Strong Performance in 2012”, the Canadian Chamber of Commerce stated that more than half—53.1%—of recent immigrants had university degrees compared to a quarter of the Canadian-born population, but still the unemployment rate for recent immigrants with a university degree was five times higher than that of someone born in Canada.
Can you elaborate on how this recruitment model will improve these rates and ensure that educated immigrants have jobs when they arrive here?
Noon
Director, Skills Policy, Canadian Chamber of Commerce
As I mentioned in my opening remarks, the research is very clear in the evaluations of the federal skilled worker program and the provincial nominee program. If immigrants come with a job offer waiting for them upon their arrival, their economic and employment outcomes are far better. Those immigrants who come and then have to seek employment have a different experience and outcome, and it has not been as good a record in terms of their outcomes over the course of their time in Canada. They do eventually catch up, but—
Noon
NDP
The Vice-Chair NDP Lysane Blanchette-Lamothe
Thank you very much. I have to stop you here.
Ms. Ayala, you have the floor for seven minutes.
Noon
NDP
Paulina Ayala NDP Honoré-Mercier, QC
I would like to thank the witnesses for being here with us today.
We are talking here about a more responsive and efficient system that truly meets the economic needs of the country. Employers will be able to indicate which candidates will best meet their needs.
At what point do you feel you should be included in the system? You will make an expression of interest, but will you play a role in the selection of the best immigrants? In other words, will you have an influence on whether or not immigrants are accepted as permanent residents? Is my question clear?
Noon
Director, Skills Policy, Canadian Chamber of Commerce
Yes. Thank you very much, Ms. Ayala.
If I could answer in English, with your indulgence, I think there are a couple of things to bear in mind. There will be a first round of criteria that applicants will have to meet before they will be made available for review by an employer. I'm not absolutely certain what those criteria will cover, beyond what we've seen, but let's assume they are these various human capital criteria. Those are important indicators. The employer then will be looking at those individuals vis-à-vis their qualifications under whichever program they are looking to come through.
There is a set of criteria and there's a ranking, I assume, that will be applied. So it's not only the employer who will be looking at and assessing individuals. There will be a number of other assessments that will be made by virtue of the government's role through the programs and the system itself.
Noon
NDP
Paulina Ayala NDP Honoré-Mercier, QC
Yes, but how will the employers and their future employees get in touch with one another? Will this only be done through paper documents, or will you interview these people? This could be done using Skype, which is a different way of proceeding.
Noon
Director, Skills Policy, Canadian Chamber of Commerce
Yes, absolutely.
As I understand it, when an employer who is eligible to look at the pool of candidates who meet the first round of criteria sees somebody they are interested in, they could then pursue the usual job interview recruitment process. At the point that the employer makes a job offer and it's accepted by that candidate, that would then potentially trigger the government inviting that individual to apply for permanent residency. The second stage of the system would be triggered on the acceptance of a job offer.
November 19th, 2013 / 12:05 p.m.
NDP
Paulina Ayala NDP Honoré-Mercier, QC
I am concerned about something. In Australia, there appears to be a kind of sponsorship happening. As soon as an employer offers a job, they also take responsibility for the new employee. I don't know how things will unfold here in Canada. You said that someone may be recruited to work in the Far North. However, if they have children, there is no school for them there. Who will meet the needs of that individual so that their settlement goes smoothly? The arrangement should not only be advantageous for the employer. The newcomers have to be able to settle with their families and adapt to their new situation.
My other concern is about working conditions. Everyone is familiar with working conditions in Canada. It's a public matter. However, do the working conditions suffer when the relationship is between the employer and an individual who is elsewhere? What happens if the individual gets here and realizes that their colleagues are earning more than they are? What happens? I am also concerned about that.
I worry that people will be hired at a lower salary because they are coming from outside the country. But once they get here, they may realize that others have better working conditions. Can you assure us that those individuals will have the same working conditions as individuals from here, in Canada?
12:05 p.m.
Director, Skills Policy, Canadian Chamber of Commerce
If I understood, I think we perhaps have two questions within what you asked.
One was with respect to the quality of the employment offer. Again, I think that is the due diligence the government will do in concert with the employer saying they have made a job offer. I assume the legitimacy of the job offer would be under the same review, or something similar, to the arranged employment offers that are currently reviewed under the federal skilled worker program. So there is a responsibility.
We are very mindful that employers are members. We are the largest business association. Our members are very concerned about legitimacy. It doesn't serve any of us if employers abuse or are not acting appropriately under the laws and regulations as expected.
With regard to working conditions, again, these are permanent residents, and there should be every understanding that they will have every opportunity, every recourse, if they feel there is something unacceptable or inappropriate with their working conditions. They are subject to provincial regulations. They are subject to various laws. These are all within the ambit of what the employer must abide by. It's absolutely critical that the new immigrant be well versed, and I think there's a lot of attention paid to that.
12:05 p.m.
NDP
Paulina Ayala NDP Honoré-Mercier, QC
My question is to you both. Have you undertaken any evaluation of the economic improvements that this new system will provide? In other words, will this new system improve the economy? Have you undertaken any forecasts?
12:05 p.m.
Director, Education, Engineers Canada
The engineering profession hasn't had any forecast, but if an individual is more licence-ready when they come to Canada, they'll be able to become part of the labour market a lot sooner and be an active member. I think the time that is saved by ensuring that they are licence-ready when they do come will assist them.
12:05 p.m.
NDP
The Vice-Chair NDP Lysane Blanchette-Lamothe
I am sorry Ms. Ayala, but your time is up.
Mr. McCallum, you have the floor for five minutes.
12:05 p.m.
Liberal
John McCallum Liberal Markham—Unionville, ON
Thank you.
Welcome to the witnesses.
First of all, Ms. Anson-Cartwright, our concern is not so much the fact of the new proposal as it is the apparent lack of consultation in developing the details of it. When new government regulations come into effect, before they are in effect there is a period of consultation and input from various experts, whereas in this case the ministerial instructions will be issued without prior consultation.
I think we saw problems here with the Canadian experience class when the rules were changed abruptly and many people were left in the lurch. There is always the possibility of improvement.
My question to you is this. Would it not be better for there to be some sort of draft of these ministerial instructions so that input could be provided by your members and others, rather than their just being announced all at once?
12:10 p.m.
Director, Skills Policy, Canadian Chamber of Commerce
Thank you, Mr. McCallum.
We're very interested in details, absolutely. But I have to say that I think any organization, be it the Canadian Chamber of Commerce or any company that takes an interest in these types of changes in our immigration system, has found a completely open door at the department or in the minister's office to inquire and explore. Whether or not it's formal and public, there certainly has been consultation, and I think it continues. It will have to continue because we're looking at just over a year from now for the program to actually be launched and available.
So there is a great deal of work still to do and a great deal of consultation that I would expect would have to take place to make sure that the stakeholders involved and interested in this system will in fact see a system that works for everyone.
12:10 p.m.
Liberal
John McCallum Liberal Markham—Unionville, ON
Well, yes, there is consultation, and the minister said today that he is consulting with us. That's one form of consultation. But my question is whether it would not be a good idea for you and your members to have the opportunity to examine those ministerial instructions in draft form and perhaps provide input prior to their becoming the law of the land.
12:10 p.m.
Director, Skills Policy, Canadian Chamber of Commerce
We always appreciate those opportunities to see anything in draft form. It's....
12:10 p.m.
Liberal
John McCallum Liberal Markham—Unionville, ON
But my point is that you're not going to see it in draft form, and my question is whether it would not be better if you did.
12:10 p.m.
Director, Skills Policy, Canadian Chamber of Commerce
Well, I think what's at issue is whether we will have as good an understanding of how this system will work with programs, in the interests of employers and others who are interested in it. The amount of detail that can be shared in discussions in various meetings and so forth is important to inform our organization and our members so that we have as good an understanding of what might then be reflected in the ministerial instructions.