Evidence of meeting #84 for Citizenship and Immigration in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was employers.
A recording is available from Parliament.
3:35 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Sukh Dhaliwal
We have a quorum, so I am going to call the meeting to order.
Welcome to meeting number 84 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Citizenship and Immigration.
In this first hour, we are continuing our study of closed work permits and temporary foreign workers.
Go ahead, Mr. Redekopp.
3:35 p.m.
Conservative
Brad Redekopp Conservative Saskatoon West, SK
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Before we get going, I want to ask a quick question.
We have three motions on the floor, which have been approved by the committee, to have the minister come. I see that he is coming on one of those days, so that's a good thing, but he still hasn't given us a date for the other two. Can you advise us whether he's given us a date, or what the status of that is?
3:35 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Sukh Dhaliwal
Thank you for your question, Mr. Redekopp.
As usual, our clerk is working very hard to secure the minister. We as a committee, and I as chair, do not control his schedule, and neither does the clerk. I can tell you that every effort is being made for him to come to this committee. He's been here twice already, and he has already committed to us on December 5. We will make sure we continue to do our part as chair and clerk of the committee. Rest assured this will happen.
In fact, we were also able to secure the UN rapporteur for December 7. If we take those two dates into consideration, we only have two meetings left. I'm not sure whether the minister is available, but we will certainly send a request and make every effort to ask him to come to this meeting.
3:35 p.m.
Conservative
Brad Redekopp Conservative Saskatoon West, SK
Has he given any indication about those last two meetings to you or the clerk?
3:35 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Sukh Dhaliwal
Right now, the only thing confirmed is December 5, which has to do with the supplementary estimates. Rest assured that, as chair, I will request that our clerk make every effort. He's doing a great job as clerk, so I commend him. He's very non-partisan, as you know, so he will make every effort to work on our behalf.
Thank you.
Now, on behalf of the committee, as chair, I would like to welcome the following witnesses. We have Madame Gagnon physically present with us here. Mr. Borja Torres is also here in the room. I also welcome Mr. Chambers online.
With that, I will open the floor to Mr. Borja Torres for five minutes, and then Madame Gagnon.
Mr. Borja Torres, go ahead, please, with your opening statement for five minutes.
3:35 p.m.
Fernando Borja Torres Director General, Fondation des entreprises en recrutement de main-d'oeuvre agricole étrangère
Thank you.
Good afternoon. Thank you for the opportunity to present the position of FERME on closed work permits.
I think the work permits work. There isn't a problem with the work permits. I think that what makes a lot of headlines is the lack of a pathway for temporary foreign workers, especially in agriculture or in low-wage sectors, to have access to permanent residency. I think that's where a lot of the problems are in the news. As I mentioned in my notes, a lot of the workers we bring to Quebec to the farms come for temporary periods. The average is about 22 weeks. That's the need of the employers in agricultural farms. It's a very specific time that they require the workers for.
These workers help so that thousands of families can have fresh produce of good quality in their houses. Thousands of companies, of farms, are able to continue producing in and developing the rural areas of Quebec. It also helps thousands of workers and their families improve their livelihoods in their countries.
In FERME, we try to bring in workers for an average of eight months and have recurring workers for companies that require workers for a year or two years. We prefer to have them come for eight months and then have rotations of workers. The main reason the workers come to Canada is to improve the livelihoods of their families. The workers are away from their households for many months over many years. We don't think it's a good way to help the workers or their families. I think eight months should be enough. That's why temporary work permits work for us.
In the sense that the closed work permits force our workers to stay at the farms, I think the government has already put in place mechanisms to help these workers who find themselves in a bad situation to change an employer now, with the new open work permit for vulnerable workers. Also, in the SAWP program, there is the possibility that if the government agent feels that the employee is not in a good position, they could request that Service Canada make a change for the worker. I think there are options for the workers to be in a better position if they need to be.
Also, there's something that wasn't discussed. In the case where there is a closed work permit for a specific sector, if an employee comes to Quebec and then decides he doesn't want to stay at the farm, how will he be able to change? How will the employer, who pays the plane ticket to bring him over, be reimbursed? Is he going to be reimbursed? Can anybody just decide that maybe the next farm is going to give him a dollar more and that's a sufficient reason to change employers? Those things need to be considered if we're going to move forward into an open work permit on a sectoral basis.
Thank you very much.
3:40 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Sukh Dhaliwal
Thank you, Mr. Borja. That was three and a half minutes.
Now we will go to Madame Gagnon.
Madame Gagnon, you have five minutes for your opening statement.
3:40 p.m.
Denise Gagnon Vice-President, Board of Directors, Réseau d'aide aux travailleuses et travailleurs migrants agricoles du Québec
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you for welcoming the Réseau d'aide aux travailleuses et travailleurs migrants agricoles du Québec, or RATTMAQ. I apologize for my colleague, who should be arriving shortly. He left Sherbrooke, where he had another activity, this morning. This is our peak season, when we support workers who are returning to their homes.
RATTMAQ is a network of various associations in several regions of Quebec. They include human rights, pastoral and parish organizations that have joined our network to support workers and advocate for their rights. We are a registered non-profit, an independent human rights organization funded by Quebec's Ministère de l'Immigration, de la Francisation et de l'Intégration.
We unfortunately did not have the time to prepare a summary or notes, but we will be submitting a brief to you in the next few weeks. It will be a summary of the briefs that we have submitted to the Quebec government on immigration planning in which we address the specific issue of temporary foreign workers and, more specifically, the closed work permits issue.
As noted by the representative of Fondation des entreprises en recrutement de main-d'œuvre agricole étrangère, or FERME, closed work permits are a problem for access to permanent residence for the people we represent. Like Tomoya Obokata, the UN special rapporteur, we believe it creates a serious human rights problem. Some rights are recognized in our charters, acts and even the trade agreements that Canada has signed, particularly with Mexico. Foreign workers unfortunately live with a sword of Damocles over their heads, since their employer alone can decide at any moment to send them back to their country. This raises a human rights issue because workers cannot defend their rights in these circumstances.
In Quebec, we are also studying a sectoral work permit together with the minister. We haven't taken a firm position on the issue, but we would not want major employer conglomerates to control this issue or for there to be no equivalent for the defence of human rights. Not all employers mistreat their employees, but some cases have made the headlines in Quebec. This is serious. Problematic cases must absolutely be eliminated. Furthermore, the Union des producteurs agricoles in Quebec acknowledges that, if we pay attention to these cases and resolve them, that will encourage better competition in the market for farmers and producers in the food processing industry.
Our services are entirely free of charge. We are funded by civil society and Quebec's Ministère de l'Immigration, de la Francisation et de l'Intégration.
Economically speaking, we agree that we must promote access to permanent residence and even citizenship, given that these workers are already in our regions and that the fact that we have people in the regions is already a challenge for us in Quebec. These workers are already in the regions and have learned French. Not all of them are here for only eight months. Some have been here for many years and have not seen their families or watched their children grow up. We think this system must be reviewed in order to facilitate both the situation of workers and that of agricultural producers, who are currently suffering.
Our watchword is obviously respect for decent work. According to the International Labour Organisation, decent work is based on four pillars. First, international standards must apply, including the right of association, which has also been limited in Quebec in recent years. Second, there has to be access to social protection, such as insurance plans. However, access to employment insurance is very complicated for the people we represent. The other two pillars of decent work are non-discrimination and social dialogue.
If we fail to introduce mechanisms for exercising the right to collective labour relations, we will keep going round in circles because individual workers are unable to defend themselves. If everything was going well, RATTMAQ would not exist. We currently support and represent some 20,000 workers in all phases of their process of entering Quebec society.
My colleague Michel Pilon has just arrived. He is responsible for legal issues brought before the Commission des normes, de l'équité, de la santé et de la sécurité du travail and other bodies.
I believe I have used up the five minutes that were available to me.
We will now be pleased to answer your questions.
3:45 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Sukh Dhaliwal
Thank you, Madame Gagnon.
On behalf of the committee, I would like to welcome Mr. Michel Pilon. I know there was traffic on the way. Welcome to the committee meeting.
Now we will go virtually to Mr. Chambers.
Mr. Chambers, you have five minutes for your opening statement.
3:45 p.m.
Mark Chambers Vice-President, Canadian Pork Production, Sunterra Farms
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thanks for giving me the opportunity to speak today on the subject of closed work permits.
My name is Mark Chambers. I'm the VP of Canadian pork production for Sunterra Farms. Sunterra is a value-added food production company based in Alberta. We have primary agriculture production with grain, hogs, pork processing, a salami plant, and a greenhouse division producing strawberries and tomatoes. We also have a retail division in stores in Calgary, Red Deer and Edmonton, providing groceries to Alberta consumers.
Like many other businesses in Canada, Sunterra has been using the temporary foreign worker program for many years with great success. Most of the program for us has been used for closed work permits under the temporary foreign worker program, LMIA-dependent permits. It has enabled us to continue our operation with success, just as many other businesses in Canada have, especially in tight labour markets.
At Sunterra, we've used the program as a stepping stone for year-round employees to transition to becoming permanent residents of Canada. As an employer, we provide guidance and help in accessing the different PR streams while the employees continue to work. On many occasions, when a temporary foreign worker arrives in a rural community, they transition to a PR. Then they bring their family and stay in that rural community. That's been a real pillar for us.
This program has been a cornerstone in maintaining the balance of labour markets and safeguarding the interests of Canadians as well. It's especially true for agricultural and agri-food businesses. They are located in rural parts of Canada. We know that we have rural depopulation occurring in Canada, so recruiting Canadians to fill vacant positions can be very difficult.
While this program has been good for our business, it doesn't come without its costs and challenges, because four arms of the government are involved in facilitating this program—ESDC, Service Canada, IRCC and CBSA. As you can imagine, having all four departments work in sync can be a bit of a challenge. Very often, changes occur to the program—it's a very fluid program—and they're not always positive for users of the program. I do understand that at times the temporary foreign worker program is a little bit of a hot potato, but today they have introduced newer rules with ongoing inspections and unannounced inspections to ensure that the program is delivering the requirements to the employees who are using the program.
The program has made some great progress in reducing the time it takes to obtain an LMIA, a labour market impact assessment. That's through ESDC and Service Canada's efforts. They've done a great job of that. There's still a challenge on the side of IRCC on the time it takes to process work permits. Even within Canada, it can take up to four and a half months. From overseas and different countries, it can take even six or nine months to process a work permit. I think Fernando touched on this.
One misconception of closed work permits is that the employee is tied to an employer. While that may be true, it is not permanently true. If a temporary foreign worker does want to leave their current employer, they can apply to another producer or employer who has an LMIA or who can obtain an LMIA. They can submit an application online. Within about 10 days, they can start working for that new employer. That process was introduced through COVID. It was a very positive step and continues to be a very positive step.
Closed work permits do offer a sense of job security for the workers, as there is a contractual agreement between the employee and the employer. It states the agreed-upon hours, rates of pay, accommodation, travel and things like that.
There are some costs and nuances to the program. One in particular today is housing. We spent a lot of time with ESDC discussing this, because currently under the agriculture stream you can charge only $30 a week for on-site housing, even if the employee lives in a three-bedroom farmhouse alone. The little nuance is that if that employee chooses to move to town on their own behalf, that house must remain open in case they want to move back. If the employer needs to hire another temporary foreign worker, he then has to rent another house. I'm sure, as we know today, rent is not $30 per week. We've been continuing to converse with ESDC on that, but thus far we haven't reached any common ground.
One of the other things we've talked about many times with ESDC and Service Canada is having a stand-alone agricultural and agri-food program outside the temporary foreign worker program. These jobs are proven to be continually in demand and difficult to attract Canadians to, with the amount of recruiting we do. If we could have a stand-alone program outside the temporary foreign worker program, it would seem to make sense. It might reduce some of the challenges from the public, being that it's such a political hot potato.
In conclusion of my opening statement here, I think closed work permits are good for balancing the needs of workers and Canadians to ensure that there's a “Canadians come first” approach to the workforce. It also aids in getting workers to rural Canada, to the in-demand jobs that are needed there. Year-round employees have the opportunity to apply for permanent residency, and many of them stay with their families in the rural locations, which is very helpful for Canada, with the rural depopulation that's going on. At the time when they become a PR, their family members arrive and some of those family members also work in the rural workplaces, which also increases the workforce.
Immigration has been the backbone of Canada and continues to be part of our prosperity, so we need to ensure that we have immigration for rural Canada—
3:50 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Sukh Dhaliwal
Mr. Chambers, your time was pretty well up a minute ago.
Before I go to the honourable members—as committee members, we're doing really well—I'll just say that moving forward, if you can mention whether your question is for Mr. Borja, Madame Gagnon, Mr. Pilon or Mr. Chambers, that will help.
With this, the first speaker on my list is my dear friend Larry Maguire.
Mr. Maguire, you have six minutes, and then we will go to Ms. Kayabaga after this.
3:50 p.m.
Conservative
Larry Maguire Conservative Brandon—Souris, MB
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you to all of the witnesses today, and Mr. Pilon as well for being here. I have some questions that I would like to touch on. First of all, I will go to Mr. Chambers.
Are you aware of any farmers who have asked the minister to introduce open work permits?
3:50 p.m.
Conservative
Larry Maguire Conservative Brandon—Souris, MB
Are you aware if the Liberal government has asked any farmers their thoughts on introducing open work permits?
3:50 p.m.
Conservative
Larry Maguire Conservative Brandon—Souris, MB
You mentioned the challenges that IRCC has and the timelines. As succinctly as you can, would you please explain the costs and the time associated with the issues of applying for an LMIA, recruiting a worker and bringing them to Canada? Update us on this.
3:50 p.m.
Vice-President, Canadian Pork Production, Sunterra Farms
It is quite a process. If you're under the agricultural stream, which is primary agriculture only, the cost to apply for an LMIA is zero. If you're outside of the agricultural stream—such as a meat-processing plant, which we have here at Sunterra—the cost of each application is $1,000. If you need 10 workers, that's a $10,000 cheque that you write to the government just to have the right to bring in a farm worker. Then, on top of that, you have to go overseas and try to recruit workers. We do that, or we might use a third party in a foreign country to find workers for us. Of course, there's a cost that we have to pay that third party to do that. That cost can sometimes be up to $1,000 per employee.
When you have the worker, you send that information to the worker. They have to apply for a work permit overseas. They submit that application and that gets processed. There's a cost to them, and to the Canadian government. I think those costs are about $250 a day, or somewhere around there, but don't quote me on that.
That takes a while. Then, once you get the approval letter for them to come to Canada, you have to arrange flights for them to bring them to Canada. On top of that, regardless of what stream they're in, for housing you have to ensure that there's a house set up for them, ready to go, equipped with everything they're going to need. You have to pick them up from the airport. When they do arrive, we make sure they know where the grocery store is and where the post office is. We get them set up with banking, health care—
3:55 p.m.
Conservative
Larry Maguire Conservative Brandon—Souris, MB
I'm going to have to move on. You've listed a ton of them.
3:55 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Sukh Dhaliwal
Mr. Chambers, Mr. Maguire has other questions. If you could keep your comments brief, we would appreciate it.
Mr. Maguire, go ahead.
November 23rd, 2023 / 3:55 p.m.
Conservative
Larry Maguire Conservative Brandon—Souris, MB
I like the detail of your answer, but I want to move on. You made the point that there's quite a cost involved.
You raised your concern about introducing open work permits in terms of the unpredictability and the risks of workers immediately changing jobs once they arrive in Canada. You indicated in your comments that you share that concern. Can you just confirm that?
3:55 p.m.
Vice-President, Canadian Pork Production, Sunterra Farms
It is a big concern that someone could just basically stand at the airport and cherry-pick, despite all the work that someone else has done, and then you end up without a worker.
3:55 p.m.
Conservative
Larry Maguire Conservative Brandon—Souris, MB
The persons would then try to find a job in a larger community and leave the rural community.
3:55 p.m.
Vice-President, Canadian Pork Production, Sunterra Farms
Yes, that would definitely be a problem because, as we know, today most of the immigration is to urban centres and a lot of people like to be living in urban centres. That's part of the issue of the rural depopulation going on in Canada. Being able to bring a worker directly to rural Canada helps revitalize those communities.
3:55 p.m.
Conservative
Larry Maguire Conservative Brandon—Souris, MB
If the government created a sectoral open work permit—meaning the workers would still have to be employed in the same type of job with a different employer—do you have concerns that other companies would try to poach those workers?
3:55 p.m.
Vice-President, Canadian Pork Production, Sunterra Farms
That is a concern, for sure. I think there needs to be more discussion around that with employers on how exactly that would work. I think it needs to be narrowed down to the specific NOC code—not just a sector or agriculture. If we're trying to bring people to fill jobs on hog farms, then that's the NOC code we need and we don't want those guys leaving to do something else in agriculture where there's not necessarily a shortage.