Citizenship and Immigration Committee on Dec. 5th, 2023

[The Chair, Liberal, Sukh Dhaliwal]

Mr. Ali, go ahead for two and a half minutes, please.

[Shafqat Ali, Liberal, Brampton Centre, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Through you, Mr. Chair, to Ms. Fox, many of my constituents of Pakistani origin constantly ask me for updates on the issue of enhancing visa processing capacity in Islamabad, Pakistan, which was announced last year under Canada's Indo-Pacific strategy. Can you please confirm that visa processing is currently being done in Islamabad?

[Christiane Fox]

In fact, having a greater footprint in Islamabad has been a priority of the government, and, as you noted, it's a commitment in the Indo-Pacific strategy. Interviews being conducted out of Islamabad were an irritant to the Pakistani government, but we can, in fact, now confirm that interviews can be conducted in Islamabad.

We are continuing to look to expand our footprint. We have candidates who are ready to be deployed to Islamabad. We are working with the government to get the visas complete so they can arrive and increase our footprint. That's a conversation we continue to have.

I think, given the caretaker government, that there were perhaps a few delays in getting the conversations that we needed to have going, but I think we are on track, and we're quite proud to expand our team there.

[Shafqat Ali, Liberal, Brampton Centre, ON]

You're saying that you have some pending visas for IRCC officials who would be working in Pakistan. Currently you're waiting on the Pakistani government for that. Can you confirm that, please?

[Christiane Fox]

Yes, that is the case, absolutely, and we hope that we get answers on those very soon.

[Shafqat Ali, Liberal, Brampton Centre, ON]

Thank you so much.

If you'd like to add on any other issues, I'll give my time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sukh Dhaliwal]

Thank you.

Deputy Minister, do you want to say something? Otherwise, we'll proceed.

[Christiane Fox]

On Pakistan, I know there's been a lot of attention on deportations and, at times, detainment, so we continue to work with officials. We track numbers every day. We're in communication with our clients who may find themselves in those situations, and it is obviously a big priority for us to work with our clients to try to get them to Canada as quickly as possible.

We are encouraged by progress that we've seen in charter arrivals, and we hope that continues until December and in the new year, but, in our conversations, we continue to work very closely with the Pakistani government.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sukh Dhaliwal]

Thank you very much.

Now I will go to Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe for six minutes, please.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for being here, dear witnesses. It's good to see you again.

Ms. Fox, when you last appeared before the committee, I told you about a problem raised by the RATTMAQ, the Réseau d'aide aux travailleuses et travailleurs migrants agricoles du Québec.

We recently heard from representatives of RATTMAQ as part of our study on closed work permits. I told them about the problem they had observed, that is to say that a significant number of open work permit applications they had made for vulnerable workers had been refused at the beginning of January 2023. The RATTMAQ had received eight negative decisions. However, the files were very similar to the previous files, which had always been approved.

Following an intervention made jointly by my office and that of Mr. Lightbound, we met with the office of the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration at that time. Then there was a fairly dramatic change in that case. The situation came back to order shortly after our intervention.

However, we didn't know in detail what had happened. What I learned was that the refusals came from the same official, because each time it was the same officer number.

When I asked you last time, I had the impression that you had some information on the subject, unless I misunderstood. Could you elaborate on that?

[Christiane Fox]

When you raised this issue last time, I told you that I had indeed met with representatives of the Réseau d'aide aux travailleuses et travailleurs migrants agricoles du Québec during our strategic review consultations. At that time, they told me about some cases that had been refused, without giving me any details, however.

After you asked me the question in committee, I went back to my team to find out the approval rate of applications. As you noted, that rate was indeed low in Quebec. It was 47% in 2022, and now it's 57% in 2023.

I'm looking at the program as a whole. As for the evidence to be demonstrated, the bar is intended to be lower, given that these are vulnerable people. We have issued open permits to vulnerable workers, but I think we need to continue the training with our public servants who are making decisions, so that they are in a position to make the right decisions. As to whether it was a specific official, I don't have those details with me today. I'll ask my team. However, I would say that there is a need for ongoing training for our officers who make decisions about very sensitive cases.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Madam Deputy Minister, my question is very specific. It's really about a specific problem. I don't want to know all the numbers or how and why. I say that with all due respect.

My question is about the officer in question. If I'm aware of the fact that it was one and the same officer, since the officer number was always the same, who almost systematically refused the same type of request when they were normally accepted, I can't believe that the department isn't aware of this situation. If RATTMAQ is aware of it, and if I, as opposition MP, am aware of it, then you must be aware of it. Am I mistaken?

[Christiane Fox]

As a deputy minister, I don't know if those decisions were made by the same official. I'll follow up. No, I'm not aware of that.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

However, I talked about it the last time in committee. You told me that you were going to provide us with an answer later, but I didn't receive one.

There's a hypothesis out there, but it may not be true. According to this hypothesis, an official in your department with the authority to decide whether to approve or refuse open permits for vulnerable workers apparently held far‑right views. Suddenly, the department apparently came to the conclusion that this was what had happened. The problem was apparently solved in the end, without it being reported publicly. That's just a hypothesis.

So my question to you is, is it credible? Is that a possibility, Ms. Fox?

[Christiane Fox]

As a proud public servant, I would tell you that we all adhere to a code of values and ethics. We take training, we have conversations with our employees about what that means to us, both individually and collectively.

There are often people who assume that some activities are the result of bad intentions, but sometimes there may be other reasons. For example, it may be a matter of training, a new file to learn or a new employee. I wouldn't be prepared to tell you today that there was harmful intent. However, I'm prepared to tell you that we often talk about the Values and Ethics Code for the Public Sector, because it's important in an organization like ours.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

I want to be clear: I don't hold it against you, I'm not criticizing you. However, I want to shed some light on this story.

If it turns out that such an activity has occurred in your department, in other words, a person with decision‑making power has systematically refused all applications for open permits for vulnerable people based solely on their opinion, which borders on the far right, will you commit today to coming back to the committee and telling us so publicly? Will you commit to being fully transparent, once this has been discovered, and tell us what actually happened within the department and what the consequences were?

[Christiane Fox]

Absolutely. I'm prepared not only to report to the committee if that's the case, but also to report to the committee on any action taken with regard to that officer.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you very much, Madam Deputy Minister.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sukh Dhaliwal]

Thank you very much.

I will now go to Madam Kwan.

Madam Kwan, you have six minutes with the deputy minister and the team.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

My first question for the deputy is with respect to the people whom the government is evacuating from Gaza. How many of them are immediate family members and how many of them are extended family members?

[Christiane Fox]

Right now, for the committee's benefit, we work very closely with Global Affairs Canada. The assisted departures, in the first phase, were focused on Canadians, permanent residents, and their immediate families.

As the minister pointed out, there were situations where people came through, perhaps with an aging aunt. There have been cases where people have gotten through the border and we have facilitated the next steps of that process. What we are doing is working very closely with the authorities who are managing the list to try to.... In the first phase, our focus was definitely on Canadian citizens, immediate families and PRs, but we recognize that we also need to think about broader families and are looking at what type of action we can take in that space.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

To date, how many of those who have been brought in are extended families?

[Christiane Fox]

Just to make sure, it's extended families and those brought over—so many people are staying in Egypt and are not necessarily coming to Canada or are going elsewhere. Not everybody is coming here. The second, as I mentioned, is that the immediate family was the focus of the assisted departures in phase one.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Could we get a breakdown of the number of extended family members Canada helped facilitate who are now in Egypt, and how many actually boarded a plane to Canada and arrived in Canada? If we could get a breakdown of those numbers, I would appreciate it.

Can I get confirmation that we will get that information for the committee?

[Christiane Fox]

Yes, we can get you that for the committee.