Evidence of meeting #23 for Indigenous and Northern Affairs in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was housing.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Michael Wernick  Deputy Minister, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development

9:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Colin Mayes

I open the meeting of the Standing Committee on Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development of Thursday, November 2, 2006.

Committee members, you have the orders of the day before you. We'll be dealing with the main estimates for 2006-07 and votes 1, 5, 10, 15, 20, 25, L30, L35, 40, and 45 under Indian Affairs and Northern Development; and votes 85 and 90 under Canadian Heritage.

This morning we have the Honourable Jim Prentice, Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development, with us to make a presentation.

With him are witnesses from his department. We want to welcome Michael Wernick, deputy minister; Suzanne Tining, associate deputy minister; and Jim Quinn, acting assistant deputy minister of corporate services.

I would also like to acknowledge the gallery. We have a good gallery today, and welcome especially to students from the NS program. It's good to see you.

Mr. Minister, thank you very much for coming here this morning to speak on the estimates. We'll let you have an opening presentation, and then we'll carry on with questions.

Committee members, I understand the minister has to leave by 10 o'clock, so we'll deal with the minister for the first hour.

Mr. Minister.

9:05 a.m.

Calgary Centre-North Alberta

Conservative

Jim Prentice ConservativeMinister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, and thank you for welcoming me here.

I spent quite a bit of time at this particular committee, a short time ago in a previous Parliament, so it's always nice to come back and see lots of bright young faces here this morning.

Welcome to the students. I know they're going to see a display of great patience, cooperation, and dignity from all of the parliamentarians at the table today.

9:05 a.m.

Some hon. members

Oh, oh!

9:05 a.m.

Conservative

Jim Prentice Conservative Calgary Centre-North, AB

First, I'd like to thank you for letting me appear before you, Mr. Chair and colleagues, to discuss the main estimates of the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development. I'm a firm believer in scrutiny of the estimates, and this committee fulfills a very valuable role in that function. I welcome the opportunity to talk with you and to discuss any of the specifics you wish to discuss.

Of course, I have with me three very able people from the department with whom you may wish to speak as well. Mike Wernick is the deputy minister of the department and was appointed in May. Before that he had an extensive career in the Government of Canada with the Privy Council Office, and he's doing a fine job. He will be assisted by Jim Quinn and Suzanne Tining, who are both very senior people in the department with senior responsibilities. They can certainly answer many of the questions as well.

As I begin, I should say that the executive team at the Department of Indian and Northern Affairs is one that the government and the people of Canada can take considerable pride in. It is an executive team—I know it's not a competition—that I'm always proud to say are the equal of any other executive team in government. So they're very capable people and have a tough job, but they discharge their responsibilities with great ability and integrity.

Ladies and gentlemen, the total spending in this year's main estimates of the INAC department is approximately $6.3 billion, which is roughly 6.2% higher than last year. This spending reflects our government's firm and ongoing pledge to resolve several vaccine challenges that confront aboriginal peoples and northerners.

Specifically, the new government is determined to close the gaps between aboriginal people and other Canadians when it comes to issues such as education, housing, health care, and other key elements of healthy and fulfilling lives.

Of course these estimates do not contain the expenditures on aboriginal health. They're contained in the Department of Health's estimates, and as I recall, that's almost an additional $2 billion, which you would find in the Department of Health, in addition to the $6 billion we're speaking of here.

The main estimates of the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development reflect the government's approach to reaching goals. It's an approach based on workable solutions, targeted expenditures, and measurable results. More precisely, we focused on four specific areas.

The first is to empower individuals to take greater control and responsibility for their lives through directing investment towards housing and education.

Next, we are looking to accelerate land claims, and this work is under way at this point. I appeared last night in front of the Senate committee, which is conducting an investigation into the specific claims. They will be preparing a report, hopefully by Christmas, that will detail how they think the government should be dealing with specific claims, and I've committed to a retooling of that process.

We are also promoting economic development, job training skills, and entrepreneurship.

Finally, we are laying the groundwork for responsible self-government by moving towards modern and accountable governance structures.

When I speak of economic development, I should point out for the benefit of the committee that a number of years ago, the economic development portfolio was created for Indian and Northern Affairs. It was then taken out of the department and transferred to Industry, Trade and Commerce.

So I welcome your thoughts on this. That's something I have spoken extensively to first nations leaders about. As it currently sits, economic development is essentially the responsibility of a different government department, not INAC, and I've heard much criticism of this.

Mr. Chair, I'm convinced that this four-pronged approach represents the most prudent and effective way to put into action the resources presented in the main estimates. In fact this approach has already yielded tangible results for northerners and our first nations citizens.

Last spring the new government's first budget included $750 million to help aboriginal peoples access supplies of safe drinking water, enhance on-reserve housing, and create both educational programs for students and social programs for aboriginal women, children, and families. The budget also set aside $300 million to help aboriginal people and northerners build and repair affordable housing in the north, and set aside up to $500 million over ten years to offset the potential socio-economic impacts of the Mackenzie Valley gas pipeline.

I should point out that these investments are not contained in the main estimates. To fulfill these commitments, we will use the supplementary estimates that were tabled in the House earlier this week and the main estimates for future years.

Supplementary estimates will also be used to take additional steps to enhance the quality of life in first nation communities. For instance, last week I announced that there would be an additional $6 million available this year to help ensure that 35 department-funded family violence shelters continue to provide essential support services to women and children on reserves. I would point out that this is the first time the funding for the on-reserve shelter network has been enhanced in 15 years--the first time that's been done.

Just this past week at the Socioeconomic Forum in Quebec--some of our parliamentary colleagues were also in attendance--the government announced more than $88 million in initiatives and investments to benefit first nations, Métis, and Inuit people in Quebec and in Labrador. In addition to these investments, a collaborative effort began to improve the quality of drinking water available in first nation communities.

Working alongside the Assembly of First Nations, I initiated a consultative process that included the creation of an expert panel to investigate the issue and propose effective legislative solutions. Clearly there is a need for more investment in that area, and I understand that, but we also need an effective regulatory regime on a go-forward basis.

I believe a strong legislative framework is required to ensure that first nation communities enjoy greater access to safe drinking water. A strong framework will ensure consistent operating, performance, and maintenance standards, establish clear roles and responsibilities for all groups and all levels of government, and establish mechanisms to deal with failure or negligence.

Plans are also under way to establish a legislative framework in several other areas, which the committee members are aware of, including on-reserve matrimonial real property and first nations education. I won't belabour that point. I think everyone here is aware of matrimonial real property, the steps that are being taken, and the controversy that surrounds it.

Wendy Grant-John has been appointed as my ministerial representative. She is a distinguished first nation citizen, three times elected as the chief to her particular community, and I think one of the most respected aboriginal leaders in Canada. The Native Women's Association of Canada and the Assembly of First Nations are also participating to facilitate consultations and to ensure that everyone is heard.

When those consultations are finished, I intend to act on the specific legislative recommendation they bring forward and introduce it to the House, hopefully with the broad support from all of the colleagues we have at this table.

The second example of solid legislative frameworks is the tripartite agreement that will enable first nation communities in British Columbia to assume effective and meaningful control over their on-reserve elementary and secondary education. This is known as the FNESC initiative, something that I signed with the Government of British Columbia and first nations in B.C. in June of this year. I am convinced that the calibre of education delivered on reserve will improve steadily as first nation communities in British Columbia take control of such areas as curriculum, educational standards, and teaching certification.

In fact, Mr. Chairman, this agreement has served as an inspiration, I suppose you could say, for the recent memorandum of understanding that was signed at the Socioeconomic Forum in Quebec between the Government of Canada and the First Nations Education Council of Quebec. This memorandum of understanding will enable the two sides, and eventually the Government of Quebec as well, to improve education for students from first nations communities, to increase graduation rates for first nations students, and ensure these students can take full advantage of employment and economic opportunities available to the young.

Of all the matters we work on, education is surely the one we have to get right. It is critical in terms of moving forward and achieving real change. I am very proud of the progress we're making on the education file.

The legislative frameworks that govern MRP and first nations education are crucial to create enduring solutions. Only by modernizing the legal framework that regulates the relationship between first nations and the Government of Canada can we ensure concrete improvements in their lives and make certain that specific programs are effective.

Another area I will focus on is the finalizing of comprehensive claims and self-government agreements, specific claims, and treaty land claim settlements in addition to additions to reserves. Since assuming office, the new government has finalized a number of important settlements, some such as the Fort William First Nation's rifle range claim and other specific claims, but more importantly recently the initialling last weekend of the Lheidli T’enneh First Nation agreement in British Columbia. This is the first treaty concluded under the B.C. treaty process that was put in place 15 years ago.

There may be questions about it, but the treaty shows the way forward in British Columbia. This may be the most important development in British Columbia in the last 100 years, and other treaties will fall into place behind the Lheidli T'enneh as well.

I am a firm believer in concluding fair and honourable settlements. Settlements are about justice, reconciliation, and respect. They are about making sure we have a better future and coming to terms with the past. Each settlement clears the way to strengthen governance and to provide new economic and social opportunities.

Although this subject matter is not a land claims settlement, I can also report today that the new government took decisive action shortly after coming to office to resolve the legacy of the Indian residential school system.

Early in the year, I was pleased to announce the conclusion of the Indian Residential Schools Settlement Agreement, which is currently before the courts. This historic settlement agreement, whose commitments are reflected in the departmental spending, in the estimates, includes a variety of provisions that will acknowledge the painful experiences endured by 80,000 former residential school students and give their families an opportunity to share their experiences with all Canadians. This settlement is tangible proof that the government recognizes the importance of bringing to an end the sad legacy of the Indian residential schools and moving forward in partnership with all Canadians.

The subject of specific claims warrants mention. The department has achieved success in the resolution of many specific claims, but there remain significant challenges to be addressed in the field of specific claims. Over the last 15 years, the number of specific claims backlogged in the federal system has swollen from something in the neighbourhood of 300 claims to currently over 800 claims. This number continues to grow, and the number of claims submitted yearly by first nations greatly exceeds the number of claims that have been resolved by governments year after year over the last 10 years. As the backlog of specific claims increases, the amount of effort it takes to resolve each claim also increases, and the value of the specific claims process as an alternative to litigation is increasingly diminished.

I have said this is unacceptable and that the specific claims process needs to be retooled so that it more effectively deals with the situation. I am not in a position today to announce the details of the action plan on specific claims. That work is under way. I have been working very closely with the department on that. I have some ideas to share with the committee about where improvements can be made. I spoke for an hour last night with the Senate committee about this.

We have to explore a wider set of tools such as binding arbitration and mediation. We have to streamline approval processes. We have to make sure that the authorities within my department and the Department of Justice work properly, and we have to clarify the responsibilities and roles of the Indian Specific Claims Commission.

In closing, Mr. Chairman, I realize that considerable time and diligent effort will be required for all of us to achieve these objectives, and as the main estimates for my department make clear, our work for this year will take a substantial amount of money. I can assure everyone here and my colleagues that our four-pronged approach is a focused and proven way to make clear progress towards these goals.

As minister and as head of this department, I can also assure this committee that we will follow through on the commitments we've made. We will measure our performance as we go, and we will ensure that our efforts are open, transparent, and accountable to the committee, to the House of Commons, and to all Canadians.

I'm hopeful that we can carry on with a constructive relationship with this committee on which I was pleased to serve. I welcome your advice and your input as we move forward together.

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. That covers a fair bit of ground, and I know it's important that we have time for questions, so I'm pleased to answer the questions of my colleagues.

9:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Colin Mayes

Thank you, Mr. Minister.

We'll have opening questions from the Liberal side. Mr. Merasty, go ahead, please.

9:20 a.m.

Liberal

Gary Merasty Liberal Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

First of all, I want to thank you for your presentation. It was extremely well done. I want to welcome all the young people who are here with us again. It's nice to see them here. I notice a lot of first nations and Métis leaders in attendance here as well. I welcome all of them. There are some educators here as well. It's nice to see you.

Mr. Minister, you had talked on page 7 of $450 million. I believe that $450 million is spread over two years, $150 million for the first year and $300 million for the second year. Is that correct?

9:20 a.m.

Conservative

Jim Prentice Conservative Calgary Centre-North, AB

That's correct.

9:20 a.m.

Liberal

Gary Merasty Liberal Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK

The Speech from the Throne talked about addressing education, housing, and other social issues. Have you decided how this $150 million this year is going to be split up into each of those areas and if any of it has moved yet?

9:20 a.m.

Conservative

Jim Prentice Conservative Calgary Centre-North, AB

Yes, I can. Let me just touch on the subject of housing. First, you're correct that the $450 million is over two years. There was $150 million allocated this year and $300 million allocated for next year. We've been quite diligent to ensure that all the approvals are in place to usefully employ the $150 million this year. We're still working, of course, on how the $300 million will be invested next year.

One of the initiatives we're working on with the Assembly of First Nations is on-reserve housing. I can talk generally about how much we're spending on housing as a whole. The numbers, I know, will interest you. But we really want to proceed down the road of working together with the AFN on on-reserve housing and on creating an alternative to social housing in the form of private housing.

So the $300 million for next year, I think, is probably where that is going to come into play, because we need to put an institution in place that's able to activate whatever agreement we are able to arrive at with the AFN, and that could not be done in time for the $150 million this year. So certainly we're focused on the $300 million for next year.

9:20 a.m.

Liberal

Gary Merasty Liberal Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK

Are there any plans on education, because in the Speech from the Throne you talked about education as well out of that $150 million.

9:20 a.m.

Conservative

Jim Prentice Conservative Calgary Centre-North, AB

The deputy here can perhaps get us the exact amount, but I can tell you that included in the $150 million we've dealt with issues such as water, and we've dealt with issues such as some of the infrastructure deficits in the school system. There are some urgent school construction projects that are dealt with in that amount. We've also dealt with the urgent situations with respect to the homeless shelters that I referred to. So that money has been usefully deployed immediately on urgent needs where we need to make investments.

9:20 a.m.

Liberal

Gary Merasty Liberal Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK

First, I'm looking at the four-pronged approach you talk about, and I think the headings are fine, but having lived the realities that you describe where I grew up, attended school, and lived in some of the housing, I know the real test out there in the communities that we're hearing is: how? And sometimes perception is reality in politics.

There are two issues in particular that have been troubling to many first nations and Métis leaders across the country, and one was the race-based comments by the Prime Minister. Definitely the court cases that many aboriginal people have gone to court with have been more based on the Royal Proclamation of 1763 on treaty rights. I don't think any of them say we went to court because we have a brown face; we went because we had the rights to argue in the court.

This is a bit troubling with respect to that comment. Could you maybe elaborate or clarify that a little bit more?

Secondly, in Saskatoon, in the StarPhoenix, you talked about fee simple land ownership. Again, I have a bit of a concern there with respect to an American approach on the General Allotment Act, commonly called the Dawes Act, in the states where fee simple privatized the land and in one generation 50% of reserve lands were lost. This is a concern and this is a somewhere we don't want to go and, from my understanding, the majority of first nations don't want to go. Is there an alternative approach--that is, a leasehold environment type of approach--that we can take, like with our national parks and so on and so forth?

Could you elaborate on those two comments, please?

9:25 a.m.

Conservative

Jim Prentice Conservative Calgary Centre-North, AB

Those are thoughtful questions. I had expected nothing less. I don't know whether I can answer both of them in the time to go.

Let me just say concerning on-reserve private housing that there is absolutely no intention to break up reserves into private land that will then be separated from first nation communities. There are workable ways, and we can maybe get into them a little later in terms of the detail.

I am very familiar, for example, with the Métis settlements legislation in northern Alberta, which I worked on for many years. It has melded together the concept of community-held land with private holdings. There's nothing inconsistent, and we can sort that out.

Let's come back to the fisheries. I mentioned the Lheidli T'enneh initialling this weekend. I'm not sure people have focused on this yet, but you will see embedded in that treaty the approach of which I have spoken on treaties, and concerning fish in particular. The essence of it is that, first, first nations in British Columbia have a constitutionally recognized right to food and ceremonial fish. The treaties recognize that. No one has ever questioned it.

You will see in the context of the Lheidli T'enneh treaty that it's subject to only two qualifications. One is conservation, and the other is public health and safety. It is fully consistent with what the Supreme Court has said. That right to food and ceremonial fish is essentially the paramount right on the river, if you will. The treaties recognize that.

Beyond that, we're into commercial rights of fishing. What you'll see in the Lheidli T'enneh treaty is that those rights have not been constitutionalized. There are what are called harvest allotments. A simpler word for it, which not everyone likes, is quota. There is a quota allotted to the Lheidli T'enneh as a commercial right, and it is a right that they can sell. They can sell it to anyone else; it has nothing to do with race, or anything else. It is a commercial right.

They can buy up more quota on the river or they can sell their quota on the river. The quota is defined as a certain percentage—0.7043%—of the harvestable allowable annual catch on the upper Fraser. This is a commercial right that has been accorded.

They are then subject to all of the fisheries regulations and the conservation measures and the control of the river, and in addition, this quota is a flexible formula, depending upon the abundance of fish in the river.

I think what you'll see in this, Mr. Merasty, is the way forward in dealing with the reconciliation of aboriginal and non-aboriginal fishermen on the river.

I know I've gone on too long on this, but it is an important subject.

The final point that needs to be made about it is that this all really occurs at a time on the Fraser River when the river moves from being an opportunity-based fishery, where everybody just catches whatever they can and people get as much fish as they possibly can, to where because of conservation the river is becoming a harvest allotment-based river, in which there will have to be shares. It's the only way to manage the resource, because of the pressure on it. First nation citizens under these treaties will secure a commercial opportunity to share in that allotment.

Thank you.

9:30 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Colin Mayes

Thank you very much. We are out of time, so we'll move on to the Bloc.

That was a good question, but it's a little way away from discussing the estimates. Let's keep focused, if we could, committee, please.

Mr. Lemay.

9:30 a.m.

Bloc

Marc Lemay Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I want the record to show that we had expected the Minister to be here from 9 a.m. to 11 a.m.

I find it unacceptable -- and I hope the committee agrees with me -- that the Minister would only appear for one hour. I trust I've made myself clear. This minister, for whom I have a tremendous amount of respect, oversees a budget of $6,270,544,000 and I find it completely unacceptable that we have only one hour to grill him. Therefore, I ask that he be recalled so that we can ask him more questions.

Having said that, I see, Minister, that you are well acquainted with your department. So, I will have a very specific question for you.

A document entitled Indian and Northern Affairs Canada, Canadian Polar Commission and Indian Specific Claims Commission was tabled to the committee. We have read it very carefully. The question pertains to the estimates of the Indian Specific Claims Commission.

I was completely floored, Minister, when I read page 49 of the French version of the document. As you know, housing, both on- reserve and off-reserve, is one of the most pressing problems facing First Nations and the Inuit.

I was surprised to read that the 2007-2008 budget will be reduced by $211 million compared to the previous year's budget, and that there will be an additional $224 million cut from the 2008-2009 budget compared to the 2007-2008 one. The cuts will come in the area of housing for First Nations. Therefore, over the next three years, not only will First Nations and Inuit not receive additional funding, they can expect cuts to off-reserve housing funding.

Minister, it's no secret that 40% of your budget is earmarked for program administration, which means that 40% of $6,270,544 is allocated to program administration. How much money is left over for First Nations and Inuit housing? I'd like some specific numbers. How much money will be available for housing for the next three years?

9:30 a.m.

Conservative

Jim Prentice Conservative Calgary Centre-North, AB

If you don't mind, I'll answer that question in English.

First, you'll have to be more specific on the numbers you're referring to. With respect to housing, I appreciate that you have the book there, but none of us are able to tell which numbers you're referring to. Let me give you the general numbers on housing.

9:30 a.m.

Bloc

Marc Lemay Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC

I'm sorry, Mr. Chairman, but it's very important that I draw the minister's attention to this matter.

It's on page 49 of this report, Indian and Northern Affairs Canada and Canadian Polar Commission, and Indian Specific Claims Commission. In the notes, you can see, “INAC—Total Planned Spending—Explanation of Trend”. If you read these two paragraphs, especially the second and third paragraphs, you'll see it.

Mr. Chairman, I hope you'll take into account the amount of time the minister's takes to read the document. I wouldn't want to be penalized. Thank you.

9:35 a.m.

Conservative

Jim Prentice Conservative Calgary Centre-North, AB

So let's come back to this. There's no decrease in housing expenditures. We'll come back to the note on page 49 in a moment. These are the figures. The Government of Canada has put forward over $1 billion towards aboriginal housing in this past budget, and here's how that is arrived at.

First, there was $300 million for northern housing. Second, there was $300 million for off-reserve housing. So that's $300 million north of 60° and $300 million for off-reserve housing south of 60°. That's $600 million. That money was released to the territorial governments and the provincial governments to be administered by them, but it was for those purposes, and you'll recall that forming part of the budget that was approved by the House in March.

In addition to that, I can tell you that CMHC, for specific on-reserve aboriginal housing, provides another $238 million in this year's budget. In addition to that, CMHC provides another $148 million for on-reserve housing. The CMHC is the delivery arm for housing on reserve for first nations.

If you add those numbers up, you'll see that it comes to $986 million on housing. In addition to that, there are portions of the CMHC portfolio that are off-reserve aboriginal housing. I can't give you those numbers today because they're within the purview of CMHC, but I can tell you, for example, that I spoke to the Alberta officials last week and they told me that approximately one-third of what CMHC does in Alberta is aboriginally directed programming.

You're speaking of housing investments of in excess of $1 billion.

9:35 a.m.

Bloc

Marc Lemay Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC

No, sir, it's very clear. I read the document in both English and French and you'll find the very same thing in both versions. Funding for First Nations housing will be reduced by $211.6 million between 2006-2007 and 2007-2008 and by a further $224.2 million between 2007-2008 and 2008-2009. I didn't write this. The credit for that goes to your departmental officials who earn $280,000 a year. I want you to confirm that this information is accurate. If that's in fact the case, then it's completely unacceptable.

9:35 a.m.

Conservative

Jim Prentice Conservative Calgary Centre-North, AB

As I have indicated to you, there is no reduction in housing expenditures. This refers to multi-year relationships between CMHC as the delivery arm of the government.

I'm happy to get back to you on the specifics about the footnote on page 40. I'd be delighted to do that. But I've outlined to you the over $1 billion that the Government of Canada is putting forward on aboriginal housing this year, and I know those to be the accurate numbers.

9:35 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Colin Mayes

Mr. Lemay, carry on.

9:35 a.m.

Bloc

Marc Lemay Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC

Thank you. I have a very specific question for you. As you will notice, sir, my questions are very specific.

Your government talks about the importance of accountability, or, as we call it, responsibility. I have a three-part question for you. How does your department intend to determine how departmental funds earmarked for Aboriginal women, aboriginal friendship centres and Métis groups, for example, were in fact spent and on whom? Do you plan to use Pricewaterhouse Coopers once again to audit the unmonitored spending of several communities?

9:40 a.m.

Conservative

Jim Prentice Conservative Calgary Centre-North, AB

Those are fair questions.

Going back to this last question, my deputy will get back to you on those numbers, but I think you're going to find that this relates to the $366 million of additional expenditures in this year's budget and how that $366 million was arrived at. You're going to find that it was not related to any cuts in housing expenditures; you're going to find it's a calculation of how the net amount of $366 million was arrived at.

With respect to a couple of your comments, there is a misconception that the Department of Indian and Northern Affairs is a huge bureaucratic consumer of resources. In fact, in the Department of Indian and Northern Affairs the cost of administration of the department is 4% of what the government spends--not 40%, 4%. The Department of Indian and Northern Affairs is actually, by government standards, a reasonably tight administrator of funds.

Your questions about how the money is dispensed and the accountability mechanisms are important questions, because of the $6.2 billion that this department expends--and you'll see this in the estimates--$5.25 million of that, or 85%, is actually made up of transfers, so what the Department of Indian and Northern Affairs does with 85% of the money that comes in the front door, if you will, is administer the transfer of those moneys to first nation and other aboriginal organizations.

In large measure, what the Department of Indian and Northern Affairs does is act as a funding administrator through to first nations who, under various stages of self-government, administer those funds. The department does the best it is able to administer all those funds in such a way that we know how the money is being spent and we're ensuring accountability, but frankly, there has been some tension in that the previous government has demanded extensive reports. I think that at last count, a typical first nation is required to file over 160 reports per year to the Department of Indian and Northern Affairs. That's the approach under the former government; I don't support that.

We have people filling out paper for the sake of filling out paper. The typical reports that a first nation files in a year to the Government of Canada would fill a bookshelf, and it's not resulting in any greater accountability. We need to look at the whole accountability framework. Part of the work that Harold Calla is doing with the first nation financial institution is to arrive at a certification process for first nation financial officers, so that we can have a more regulated but reduced number of reports; his work is part of this.

Parallel to this, we as a Parliament are going to have to examine the whole question of accountability structures to ensure that the same kinds of accountability regimes are in place for first nation governments as are in place for all other governments in Canada at all other levels; that is something we will have to do in the days ahead.

9:40 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Colin Mayes

Thank you.

Madame Crowder is next.

9:40 a.m.

NDP

Jean Crowder NDP Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you, Minister, for coming today.

In your presentation, I was pleased to see that an area of focus is the finalizing of comprehensive claims and self-government treaties. As you well know, I'm from British Columbia, and that's an extremely important issue for British Columbia.

In that context, there are some things in the estimates that make me wonder how that process is going to be supported. There are a number of specific areas; I'll highlight them.

On page 15, the Indian Specific Claims Commission has no budget after 2006-07. On pages 19 and 25, both of those areas appear to be areas that would support treaty processes. Those budgets go down after 2006-07, so there's a decrease in those budgets in those two cases. Then on page 48, the B.C. Treaty Commission also no longer shows any funding after 2006-07.

We know, particularly in British Columbia, that there are very few treaties. We know that the specific claims process is certainly bogged down. We heard from department officials in the past that in fact the backlog is not an accurate reflection of the actual backlog, for the reason that at some point they don't even count claims because they don't have the resources to deal with them.

As well, within the treaty process we know that once treaties are signed, implementation drags its feet. We only need to look to the Yukon, where people have been trying to get the next stage signed on and adequate resources committed to it, to see that treaties are no guarantee of actual implementation.

Could you comment on how the government's commitment to this process is reflected in cuts to the budget?