Evidence of meeting #31 for Indigenous and Northern Affairs in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was provinces.
A recording is available from Parliament.
12:10 p.m.
Conservative
Rob Clarke Conservative Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK
Would you be able to quickly explain the funding formula?
12:10 p.m.
Director General, Social Policy and Programs Branch, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
For the funding formula, under the enhanced prevention model there are three components, as we mentioned. There's the operation of the agency--figuring out the salaries for that and the salaries for the caseworkers. There are protection services, and as Ms. Cram mentioned, the costs are continually increasing. That's taking kids out of the home and putting them in care. Then there's the prevention model. That's the element of the funding formula that is new since 2007. It will allow the agencies to plan ahead. We sit down with the province and the organization that represents the first nations so we can determine what kind of caseworkers they need, the ratio of caseworkers to kids, and the kinds of prevention services they want to provide and how they will ensure that they are culturally appropriate. I'm forgetting two things that I wanted to say.
By sitting down and having those discussions, we can come to a pretty good idea of what we need in terms of incremental dollars. There can always be unfortunate peaks, but we know the general trend for maintenance and protection. It comes back to the issue of provincial comparability. It's only by sitting down province by province and with the first nations organizations that we can see what kinds of prevention services the agencies see themselves offering, what kind of capacity they need to get there, and how and where they are going to find these workers.
The five-year business plans, apart from being an accountability issue, allow the agencies to not go on a year-by-year basis.
12:10 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Bruce Stanton
Thank you, Mr. Clarke. Thank you to my vice-chair, as well, for filling in temporarily. It is always appreciated.
We'll go to Ms. Crowder for five minutes.
12:10 p.m.
NDP
Jean Crowder NDP Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC
Thank you.
Before I get to my question, I just wanted to make a point about the numbers you talked about and the number of children in care being an average of 5%. In my own province of British Columbia, the 2008 Auditor General's report said that 51% of children in care were aboriginal. I know that it varies from province to province, but I think it's important to state that in some provinces, aboriginal kids are way overrepresented among kids that have been apprehended.
You touched briefly on this in your presentation. I wanted to go back to the response from the public accounts committee on the 6%, because I'm a bit confused. The Auditor General's report indicated that the 6% of on-reserve children placed in care was how the funding formula.... In fact, in the five provinces they looked at, the percentage of kids in care in 2007 ranged from 0% to 28%. In the response to the public accounts committee, the department noted that the 6% average for the children-in-care calculation was one of many factors used to model operations.
Is the 6% still being used? How do you adjust for the fact that in some cases there may be way more than 6% of kids in care from a particular reserve?
12:15 p.m.
Director General, Social Policy and Programs Branch, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
Thank you.
In terms of the 6%, the Auditor General raised it, and the public accounts committee raised it in terms of developing a formula based on need. The program is in transition, and no matter which funding model we're talking about--in one model there are two components and in the other there are three--the operations component is where we use the 6%. It is still being used. There was an average of 5.4% this year, but as you mentioned, there are communities that have higher percentages.
12:15 p.m.
NDP
Jean Crowder NDP Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC
Just so I'm clear, the 6% is used in all cases for operations.
12:15 p.m.
Director General, Social Policy and Programs Branch, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
It's not the only calculation. There is operations, there is protection, and there is prevention. Two components are based either on actuals or on what first nations agencies see themselves doing in terms of prevention. The 6% is used in that operations component along with those other things I mentioned, such as the number of kids and the number of first nations communities and the possible remoteness.
12:15 p.m.
NDP
Jean Crowder NDP Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC
In protection and prevention, protection is the actuals, right?
12:15 p.m.
Director General, Social Policy and Programs Branch, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
That's correct.
12:15 p.m.
Director General, Social Policy and Programs Branch, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
It's what we sit down and talk about.
12:15 p.m.
Director General, Social Policy and Programs Branch, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
The 6% is then fed into the part of the formula on core operations.
The public accounts committee also specifically looked at directive 20-1 and said that we really need to look at this, because it's the funding formula with only two components. There is scope for prevention dollars, but there's very limited scope for prevention dollars, because the formula is prior to the shift to prevention. So we've undertaken, through the committee's recommendation, to look at the formula. We are at early stages, but in the meantime, we'll continue to use 6%.
12:15 p.m.
NDP
Jean Crowder NDP Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC
In the review process.... I know around 2013 is when you're expecting to have all provinces on board. In the meantime, over the next four or five years there could be significant numbers of kids going through the system. In provinces that don't have the prevention model, there is still this ongoing disparity.
12:15 p.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Education and Social Development Programs and Partnerships Sector, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
This is why in our response to the public accounts committee we said we'd look at directive 20-1 to see what we should be doing on an interim basis.
I would also mention on the 6%, the reason is that it was felt you wanted to have a base of stable funding for agencies so that an agency that had a very small percentage of children in care, like 1% or 2%, would not be penalized by having so few kids in care, and it's a good thing that they do. How do you establish what a base amount would be on which there are other elements in the formula?
12:15 p.m.
NDP
Jean Crowder NDP Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC
Do you have any statistics on outcomes for kids who have been in foster care, in terms of educational attainment, employment, contact with the justice system, health outcomes? Anecdotally I think we hear that kids who have been in foster care for the longer term don't do that well.
12:15 p.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Education and Social Development Programs and Partnerships Sector, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
Thanks for the question.
I think that British Columbia has done some research on that. We can certainly dig it up. I remember reading that research. I think that the child advocate for British Columbia put that in one of her reports. I'd be glad to find it for you.
12:15 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Bruce Stanton
Thank you, Ms. Crowder and witnesses.
We're going to go to Mr. Payne, for five minutes, followed by Mr. Bagnell. They are the last speakers I have on the list, so if any others want to speak again, or for the first time, please let me know.
Let's go to Mr. Payne, for five minutes.
12:15 p.m.
Conservative
LaVar Payne Conservative Medicine Hat, AB
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I'd like to thank the witnesses for coming today. It's important to be able to get things right from the horse's mouth, so to speak.
I was looking over your address notes, on page 5 in particular, on the Alberta first nations child and family services agencies and the new funding. The reports indicate there is already a shift in caseloads, an increased number of families accessing prevention programming, and a rise in permanent placements.
I wonder if you could give us a little more detail and how you see this. Is it turning out to be successful?
12:20 p.m.
Director, Social Programs Reform Directorate, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
I think it was mentioned previously that we are in the process of starting an evaluation of the Alberta model, so we're hoping to get more detail. However, anecdotally, the province advised us within the last six to eight months that they've already seen a shift to families accessing family enhancement quicker than when they introduced their model in the province.
We've also seen a shift in the types of care being provided. We've said that the move towards prevention is going to happen over time. If we can actually make a difference, in even shifting from institutional care to other types of care, that's going to be a success for us as well. We've seen in Alberta that they're shifting from foster care to kinship care. Kinship care is where they're actually remaining with families and in communities, which is positive. I think we're already starting to see that.
We've heard anecdotally as well from some of the agencies in Saskatchewan that they're seeing that shift.
12:20 p.m.
Conservative
LaVar Payne Conservative Medicine Hat, AB
Do you know if Alberta or Saskatchewan have any concrete numbers available?
12:20 p.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Education and Social Development Programs and Partnerships Sector, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
It's a bit early in Saskatchewan, because they've just implemented it. We're working with Alberta to try to get some concrete numbers. We are hoping in the next number of months to have more concrete data. Unfortunately, we don't have it in our hands at this point in time.
12:20 p.m.
Conservative
LaVar Payne Conservative Medicine Hat, AB
It would be very interesting for the committee to get that kind of information. I see it as quite positive in terms of what's happening.
I have another question regarding the agreements in place. Have we been using those as models for the other provinces? That's not necessarily in a cookie-cutter mode; obviously this has to be worked out with the provinces as well as the first nations. In that aspect, is this helping us to move more quickly in terms of developing these tripartite agreements for the rest of the provinces that do not have one in place at this point?