Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Oct. 20th, 2009

[Mary Quinn]

We will review the situation after five years and pursue our initiatives. This is not merely a five-year program.

[Yvon Lévesque, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Merci, Monsieur Lévesque.

Now we'll go to Ms. Crowder for seven minutes.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

Thanks for coming and updating the committee.

I want to make a quick comment on Jordan's Principle. Of course, I know you're well aware that the motion passed in the House was not limited to complex medical disabilities. That was never the intention of the motion. It was to put first nations children first, so that they were treated on an equitable basis, as children off reserve are treated. I just wanted to put that out there. It is great to see some progress, even though it's narrowed the scope of Jordan's Principle, that at least some of the provinces are coming to the table and discussing it.

In the Auditor General's report, in exhibit 4.1, she outlined that there are a number of challenges facing first nations children. They include socio-economic conditions, jurisdiction, legislation, program design, access to and availability of services, and emerging issues. And in the past year we've had a number of cases where children were apprehended because of severe mouldy conditions in homes. There was a group in Mr. Duncan's riding. A significant number of children were apprehended because of the conditions in the homes.

Our experience, of course, in the past has been that often departments end up working in silos, even silos within departments. So in the enhancement provisions, are you looking more broadly at housing, education, water, all of the other impacts on the liveability of homes for first nations children on-reserve?

[Christine Cram]

That's a very good question, Ms. Crowder.

I will start by saying that we could probably improve our coordination. But just like the health outcomes, there is a real recognition that poverty and other reasons are at the base of a lot of poor outcomes. That's why, for example, in Canada's economic action plan, there was money for water, schools, housing—

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

Sorry, I appreciate that. So let's put the political announcements aside for a minute.

I want to know, practically, how your department is coordinating with other areas to tackle the poverty issues that are impacting on the apprehension of children. My understanding is that, significantly, children are apprehended more often for poverty-related issues in first nations communities. Is there a working group? What kinds of practical things are happening to do that coordination?

[Christine Cram]

I can't speak in detail about what happens in every child and family service agency. But with our move to the enhanced prevention approach, we were trying to have more money available for agencies so that they could focus on prevention. One way to focus on prevention is to have strong individuals—I don't know what you call them—child and family service workers, social workers, working with them. Their job is to work with the communities and, as much as possible, try to keep the child in the family home.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

Sorry, but at a policy level and at a departmental level.... I mean, the agencies don't have the wherewithal to build new houses. Or even in the case in North Island, there was no mechanism to find new houses on reserve. These kids were taken out of their homes because of the severe mould. They were apprehended.

[Christine Cram]

Just to answer that, the community makes decisions. As you know, the communities make decisions on housing. They have housing authorities that have the ability to decide on the priority in housing. The government, as you know, provides the funding for that purpose.

I agree. It probably needs better linkage to make those decisions happen. But a community, one would hope, would be making decisions on priorities based on need.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

But going back to what's happening in the department, there isn't an official kind of process to make those linkages.

We know communities are underfunded for housing. They might set priorities, but they only get a certain percentage to build new housing. They simply can't meet the need in the community. But in the department, when you're looking at services for children, are you working with the folks in the department who deliver housing money?

[Christine Cram]

In our department, I'm the ADM responsible for housing, water, schools, the social programs. And that was done deliberately to ensure that when those policy initiatives and programs are developed, we are trying to do that.

I admit that we could certainly do a better job, probably.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

So tell me, practically, what's happening on the ground in your department around doing those linkages. You're the ADM.

[Christine Cram]

I'm the ADM responsible, and I have different DGs who are responsible for different aspects.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

So they all get together and talk about—

[Christine Cram]

We work together. In fact, the department works on all.... For any policy coming forward, there is a policy committee, which all.... The executives in the department look at them and are looking for exactly the things you're talking about.

I would say the challenge is that we don't do the delivery on the ground. We provide the funding. Thus, we can try to ensure that it encourages that kind of thing, but those decisions as to who gets what house is going to be made at the community level.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

We've seen horizontal initiatives in other departments. For example, there's supposed to be a gender lens over policy. There's supposed to be, but we know it's often a checkbox. When we talk about child-first principles and child welfare services, is there a child-first principle across the department when you're making decisions? Is there some sort of horizontal initiative around child-first?

[Christine Cram]

I'd have to say there isn't. That would probably be a good idea, as we do a gender lens. I think we also do an environmental lens on things. It would probably be a very good idea to have a child-first lens. I think that's something the government could very much do.

[Odette Johnston, Director, Social Programs Reform Directorate, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development]

In terms of what we're doing on Jordan's Principle, we do have a group we work with at Health Canada where, if we are made aware of a case, we have identified focal points in both departments in our regional offices. When these cases are brought to our attention, we then branch out and look at what program is implicated in our particular department. We look to see if we can resolve the case through that approach and do the case conferencing. But what's important is our need to be made aware of these cases.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

That's good to know. So if we have cases, we should contact you. That would be wonderful.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Thank you very much, Ms. Crowder.

We'll now proceed to the final question in the first round. That's to Mr. Duncan for seven minutes.

[John Duncan, Conservative, Vancouver Island North, BC]

Thank you very much.

Good morning, everyone.

Since an example from my riding was brought up, I think I should say something. I've indeed been to the community. I've been in the houses you talked about, Jean. I've talked with the chief and talked with the then band manager, as well as with the mayor of the adjacent community. This story is a lot more complicated than how you've described it. It usually is. Indeed, there was a budget for remediation. There is a budget for remediation. Indeed, there are other issues here.

Capacity and governance is always part of the equation. Certainly I'm aware of things we're trying to do on that front as well. I think that's vitally important.

On a national scale, the INAC negotiations and dealings to implement the first nations child and family services program has to deal with all of the provinces, the territories, and all of the first nations and their delivery agencies. I wonder if you could describe the scope of that, because I think it would help to portray why these comprehensive tripartite agreements are so important.

[Mary Quinn]

Thank you for the question.

The government, with the Government of Alberta and the first nations in Alberta, started implementing the enhanced prevention model in 2007. We work on a province by province basis because, as you mentioned, the provinces are different and their legislation is different. As for the first nation agencies, there are 108 of them now, but there were not so many years ago. There was nowhere near that number.

So we're dealing in a three-party situation because there is no one-size-fits-all answer. Since 2007 to August past, the government has announced five jurisdictions where the prevention model is in place.

We need the province at the table because the province has jurisdiction for child welfare. It's the province that delegates its authorities to first nation child and family service agencies and the province is accountable for compliance in that regard. The federal government funds the operation and provides, under the enhanced model, for the maintenance and prevention services that the agencies offer, so we're there as the funder. The first nations themselves are there, of course, as they run the agencies in a culturally appropriate manner that's designed to best meet the outcomes of children and families.

It is something we're doing on a province-by-province basis. It's a challenging area of public policy and risk management for the workers involved in it. If we can continue along the path we've started, we are hopeful that by 2013 we will have gotten the five remaining provinces to implement this approach.

[John Duncan, Conservative, Vancouver Island North, BC]

I have just another layer on that. Because you're operating with provincial and territorial legislation and standards that change over time, I guess it's in a state of flux, so these negotiations will have to be ongoing once agreements are in place. Is that correct?

[Mary Quinn]

That's absolutely correct. Some time ago, the provinces started moving to a prevention model. That's where the best lessons learned, the best practices, were presented to us, starting with the Province of Alberta. Even though there was quite a shift some years ago to prevention, I'd say that in the last two years many of the provinces have adjusted their legislation as well.

New Brunswick, for example, introduced new legislation about a year ago. Also, not so many months ago, New Brunswick announced that Bernard Richard, their child advocate, is doing a review of aspects of child and family services. There could be new legislation after that, too.

When the funding is provided to the provinces for the enhanced model, it's on a five-year basis. Towards that time when the end is in sight, we'll sit down again to see what the situation is. But because there are the three parties, the three parties meet two or three times a year to see what's going on and to see if there are issues.

For example, in Quebec and in Prince Edward Island, where the funding was announced in August, those three-party tables, as we call them, will be important in the regularity of the meetings over the next year, because workers need to be hired, the capacity needs to be there, and dollars need to get out the door. Bringing the three parties together is a way of keeping up with the momentum and seeing what the changes and the issues are. It's very much an opportunity for dialogue and monitoring.

[John Duncan, Conservative, Vancouver Island North, BC]

How much time do I have left?