Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on March 18th, 2010

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

Thank you.

Thank you, Minister, for being here.

Like Ms. Crowder, I'm going to ask questions on three areas, and if you could commit to get back in writing to the committee on anything you don't have time to answer, that would be great.

First, as I'm sure you are aware—you have to be—there is outrage across the country that the Aboriginal Healing Foundation has been closed, that it is not continuing. It is not being extended. I have four projects in my own riding: Liard Aboriginal Women's Society; CAIRS, the Committee on Abuse in Residential Schools Society; Kwanlin Dun First Nation; and Northern Tutchone Tribal Council. CAIRS has 133 projects and organizations that are well set up across the country. I know the one in my riding sees thousands of people, so if you take thousands times 133.... Anyone who thinks healing is finished is dreaming in technicolor.

Who would know better than the people in the Minister of Health's own riding? They, a few minutes ago, tabled in their legislature a motion.

WHEREAS the loss of these programs would represent a significant setback for community-driven wellness and healing and would threaten the viability of community support programs that have been developed over the past decade; NOW THEREFORE I MOVE, seconded by the Member for Quttiktuq, that the Legislative Assembly of Nunavut calls on the Government of Canada to fully reinstate the funding to the programs and services provided under the Aboriginal Healing Foundation which support Nunavummiut.

The second area I want to talk about is food mail. Through last year's estimates we see it was $66 million. This year's budget says they are adding $22.5 million per year for two years to bring the program total down to 60,000 people. But as we know, we need more money. There are a lot more aboriginal people. The cost of food has gone up. The evaluation that you talked about had some good suggestions of how it has to be extended. People want it extended and improved. In fact, in this year's main estimates it goes all the way down to 47,600 people. So I want a commitment that it is actually going to go up rather than down, as it says in the budget.

My last question is related to CanNor, of which we are all proud. It's great to see Ms. Jauvin here. It sort of has a slight in the budget. The regional development corporations are only mentioned in the budget on page 84, where it talks about new innovation programs. They are all mentioned: ACOA, CEDQ, and WED. The only ones not mentioned are CanNor and FedNor. Unless you can explain otherwise, it suggests that people in the north aren't capable of innovation. We get this new agency and it's not supported like the others are. It's like a step backward just after it started.

Could the minister address those issues? I know he has heard of some of these from constituents across the country.

[Chuck Strahl, Conservative, Chilliwack—Fraser Canyon, BC]

Thank you.

What we don't get to, we'll answer in written form, or you may have time to ask the officials later.

I have nothing but good things to say about the Aboriginal Healing Foundation as well. It has done good work. It was established many years ago. We gave it $125 million and a five-year mandate three years ago, and there is still money left in the Aboriginal Healing Foundation budget. They tabled the report here in the House of Commons a week or so ago.

We tabled the report, and in their annual report they talk about the details of how they will wind down the organization while still providing a level of services over the next couple of years. They will have a dozen major healing centres open across the country. They will continue to provide a series of services. These will not be as extensive as in the past, but some of the services they had in the system. It will be a reduced level of service over the next couple of years.

At the same time, of course, we did announce increased funding for Health Canada in the budget. There is another $66 million over two years in this budget, specifically for the Indian residential school resolution health support program.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

I'm sorry, but that's not an increase. That's a decrease. The health officials told us at committee this morning they had $39 million a year, and that's $33 million a year you just announced as an increase, so that's a decrease to Health Canada. If they're going to have more people to heal, then closing the healing foundation and giving them less money to heal is not a help. That's what the health officials said at committee this morning.

[Chuck Strahl, Conservative, Chilliwack—Fraser Canyon, BC]

I can't speak for Health Canada. I'm just talking about what's in the budget, $66 million over two years—

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

Yes, which is $33 million a year, and they said that last year it was $39 million.

[Chuck Strahl, Conservative, Chilliwack—Fraser Canyon, BC]

I'm not accepting that, and I'm not in the health department, so I can't speak to the health department's overall budget. For example, the food mail numbers you just talked about there are not accurate. What we put in as a notional budget of $66 million last year, after you put all the supplementary money into it and so on, this year they will spend around $60 million. They won't spend $66 million, it will be $60 million that it will come in at. The money that we are allocating is in the budget and it brings us up to $60 million. Importantly, instead of—

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

Down to $60 million.

[Chuck Strahl, Conservative, Chilliwack—Fraser Canyon, BC]

It brings us up to $60 million. It doesn't force us to go back to supplementaries every year. This is now the program. It used to be the program was $25 million, plus you had to go to supplementaries every year, as you know. This has been going on for ten years.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

Pardon me, but it's—

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

I'm sorry, Mr. Bagnell, your time is over.

[Chuck Strahl, Conservative, Chilliwack—Fraser Canyon, BC]

It's $60 million a year.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

The mains don't resemble—

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Sorry, Mr. Bagnell, you're finished.

[Chuck Strahl, Conservative, Chilliwack—Fraser Canyon, BC]

It's $60 million.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

What we're going to do there, there was a question to Ms. Jauvin, and perhaps once we get into the second stage here, Ms. Jauvin, we'll come back to that. If you have an opportunity to think about that in the meantime, maybe you could address that in your opening comments.

Now let's go to Mr. Dreeshen for five minutes. Mr. Dreeshen, go ahead.

[Earl Dreeshen, Conservative, Red Deer, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Minister. We're pleased to have all your departmental officials here as well.

First of all, I wanted to start by just congratulating your department on having reduced the number of high-risk first nation water systems from 193 down to 44, as you mentioned in your speeches, as well as reducing those 21 communities that were in especially difficult times down to four. A lot of effort has been taken, and I certainly appreciate it, and I'm sure the people in those communities do as well.

I was encouraged, as I'm sure all of the members of our committee were, when we were having our hearings in Whitehorse last fall, listening to some of the leaders of the communities. I know I've gone home and I've mentioned to people that there were a lot of CEOs who you wouldn't have minded having in your own company south of 60 because of the talent we saw there. I know just a couple of weeks ago, I, along with some committee members, was at the aboriginal finance officers' presentations, and I was fortunate enough to be sitting with Deanna Hamilton at the time, who was the award winner from the First Nations Finance Authority. When I was listening to her about the types of things they were doing in their community, as well as the other leaders who were there, I was extremely impressed with the talent that is there.

For my questions, could you perhaps expand somewhat on some of these issues, like the water systems, housing, schools? I'm interested in that, plus the infrastructure that is taking place. Also, could you update us on how our economic action plan has been working on reserves?

[Chuck Strahl, Conservative, Chilliwack—Fraser Canyon, BC]

Okay. Thank you.

Of course, in the action plan there's a reserve component and an off-reserve component as well. Whenever you get a big dollop of money for infrastructure investment it takes a lot of the pressure out of the system. There's significant investment every year from the department in new infrastructure and infrastructure management or maintenance. But the economic action plan allowed us to announce a dozen major school projects, and 12 or 14 major water and waste-water projects. There has been a lot of construction, housing construction, and so on. So all of those things are valuable.

It's not a sleeper issue because it's right front and centre in the Speech from the Throne. But in addition to the important investments—and there's $1.4 billion in additional investment under the action plan, so it's significant—one of the things I'm excited about is the line in the Speech from the Throne that talks about the need to examine new ways of managing the financing of first nations infrastructure, aboriginal infrastructure.

One of the things we do year in and year out is cash manage infrastructure based on the vagaries of.... You know, you get a fire over in one area, you run out of money in another area. It's that bad. And it's all done on a cash basis. Moving forward, the Speech from the Throne said that we need to come up with other models that allow us to lever the money we get, which is something I've been pushing for.

In a sense I feel it's a shame. We're the only organization in Canada, probably in the modern world.... The provinces don't do this, and municipalities don't do this. But under our current authorities, if we get $200 million and we say we can build ten schools, that's what we can build. If you gave $200 million to the province they'd say, “Ah, we can build $1 billion worth of schools with that”, because a school doesn't wear out in one year.

So all these investments are making improvements and doing good work. But in the long term, working with outfits like the First Nations Finance Authority, they want to use own-source revenue and property revenue to finance infrastructure on reserve, or use the P3 model we have in the finance department on reserve, or simply get away from a cash basis to a regular infrastructure financing method. Think of the impact we could have if first nations could access that. Everybody else considers this just normal routine business. But we have to go to first nations and say, “No, if you can't pay for it 100% cash you can't have it”.

So that line in the Speech from the Throne--and I'm sure lots of people just turned the page and went on--is one of the most significant things I'd like to work on this year. We need to fix how we finance infrastructure so that first nations can do what everybody else can do in this country. Then a lot of the shortages, the maintenance, and the sense of ownership would swing from the way we do it now--almost like you roll the dice you get a school, you roll the dice you don't get a school--to asking them, “How would you like to manage the long-term infrastructure needs in your community?” I bet you'd like to manage it like any municipality or authority can. You wouldn't do it based on the cashflow that came in today. You would say, “I have a long-term plan and here's how I'm going to do it”.

If we can do that, it will be the single biggest significant change in infrastructure management that has been seen in this department in a lifetime.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Thank you, Mr. Minister.

Mr. Dreeshen, thank you very much.

Now, we continue with Mr. Lévesque, the member for Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou.

Mr. Lévesque, you have five minutes.

[Yvon Lévesque, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

Mr. Minister, you already have a good idea of one of the three questions that I have for you. Good afternoon to everyone who is with you, including Ms. Jauvin, who was not there when we visited Nunavik.

Mr. Minister, this is separate from the question I asked you in the House about the food mail program. Three years ago, we suggested that the pilot project be implemented in all the communities. The cost of doing that was fairly high but minimal when compared with the cost of maintaining Canada's roads. In fact, it cost approximately $600 million to implement the pilot project in all the communities.

Currently, in announcements regarding the budget, you plan to reduce the number of gateways for the core program only, from 20 to 5 gateways. The only study we were allowed to see is a bit contradictory and should be considered with caution.

Can you tell me whether you are able to put together a program within a timeframe that you can share with us today? As a committee, can we obtain feedback from the various stakeholders so that we can give you suggestions even before a final report is released?

In terms of housing in Nunavik, 1,000 units are needed. This week, we found out that you negotiated with Quebec and have agreed on 340 housing units. Internationally, we have a very poor reputation when it comes to Inuit and first nations housing.

Have you earmarked money for Kitcisakik? In fact, last summer, I invited you to meet with the people of Kitcisakik. I was even willing to stay in the background if you felt that my presence was undesirable. Can you tell me whether, in your current budget, you have allocated money that could apply to Kitcisakik?

Those are my three questions. Since you have no problem expressing yourself, I will let you go. And, I would like you to answer in French, as promised.

[Chuck Strahl, Conservative, Chilliwack—Fraser Canyon, BC]

I can try to answer you in French, but since the issues are very complex, I may end up declaring war on another country before this discussion is over, by accident. So I don't want to do that.

The problems in Kitcisakik are indeed serious. But we have a good relationship with the Quebec government. Discussions and negotiations between the communities, the province of Quebec and our government are ongoing. There is a small project now with....

I am going to have to go to English or I'll be all day on this. I am sorry.

Regarding Young Musicians of the World, for example, you talked to me about that project. We were able to get a little bit of money in there.

But there is a bigger issue at stake, quite a big issue with Kitcisakik, and we need to work with the Province of Quebec to find the proper location for the community, set the priorities in place, and make it happen. It needs to be a joint project between the community itself, our government, and the Province of Quebec, because some of it is going to be provincial, some of the access issues, and so on.

It has proven to be very difficult. The community doesn't have a lot of capacity, in many ways. So it's very nervous about saying what it wants to do and sticking to a plan, because they're very cautious. I think it's really a capacity issue. But we have good discussions, I think, with the government and we hope to be able to see good progress this year.

On the housing in Nunavik, we were able to sign an agreement yesterday. That is the obligation we had under the James Bay and Northern Quebec Agreement. We were able to renew the five-year agreement on the Nunavik housing agreement, with an escalator. They got 15% more than the last agreement, which is good. There's always need for more, but it was good to see that.

We also transferred last year $600 million, I think it was, to Quebec for social housing generally. So where the Province of Quebec uses that $600 million is up to them. The federal government has significant investments in social housing. I can't speak to that. I don't know exactly where that goes, but it is a significant transfer.

I was just given this, that the department has recently confirmed that it will finance the construction of a new elementary school for Kitcisakik for kindergarten to grade six. So there is progress.

We are working well with the minister there in Quebec. We both have that real concern for those people, and yes, I do consider them important people.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

We do have to end it there.

[Chuck Strahl, Conservative, Chilliwack—Fraser Canyon, BC]

On your final question, I will have to get back to you on the food mail, but we don't have a program to announce today. We'll do it in writing. But certainly what was spelled out in the Speech from the Throne is that we do need a new program. We've consulted broadly with airline companies, with aboriginal groups, with retailers, with people throughout the system, and with Canada Post, and we have tried to hear what works and what doesn't and tried to come up with a workable plan.

So we've done that, but I don't have an announcement today. There isn't anything to announce yet, other than I'm expected to bring that forward quickly.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Minister, time-wise, are you okay for another question or two?

[Chuck Strahl, Conservative, Chilliwack—Fraser Canyon, BC]

I'm going to have to vamoose here pretty quickly. I have probably five more minutes.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

All right, let's take five more minutes.

We'll go to Mr. Clarke, and then we'll proceed in the same order of questioning that we have currently and we'll get to Mr. Martin.

Sorry we couldn't get there, but we have to follow the list.

Mr. Clarke.