Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Dec. 8th, 2010

[Anita Neville, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

National Chief, do you have...?

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

A short response.

[National Chief Shawn A-in-chut Atleo]

Yes, and jointly.

[Anita Neville, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

You still have a bit of time.

[Anita Neville, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

I'll end on that. Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Thanks, Ms. Neville.

Now we'll go to Mr. Clarke, for five minutes. Go ahead, Mr. Clarke. You have the floor.

[Rob Clarke, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, National Chief, and thank you, Ms. Blackstock, for coming here and testifying today.

I sit here and I listen to the testimony and to the testimony of other witnesses who have come to the committee, and with a heavy heart I look back to my upbringing, to my family situation, and how my parents raised me and how they opened the doors for foster children coming in.

I recall--I must have been about three years of age--having a child come into the home and stay with us probably until six or seven. I remember one Christmas he got really sick. We didn't know why. When we took him to the doctor, the doctor couldn't find anything wrong. It wasn't until Christmas morning.... He'd never had a Christmas. It was the excitement of it all, plus probably too he ate a box of chocolates.

I remember the day he was taken back to his family was very traumatic, because he was my brother. I see the revolving door here for family services on first nations and the strides they're trying to take to bring their children home, but it's a cycle.

When I joined the RCMP I had to do child apprehensions, going into the homes and seeing the kids in the circumstances they were facing, and I saw the ongoing cycle there. I had to take children into my home when I was with the RCMP whenever the family service worker on the reserve wasn't available or not around or you couldn't get in touch with them. That's very disheartening, especially when you're supposed to be the peacekeeper, the social worker.... We're supposed to be the jack of all trades.

National Chief, I understand about the cycle here, and I'm hoping you can shine some light today before the committee. I listen, and we always hear we need more money, we need more money, we need more money. But the underlying issue is the cycle. How do we teach the lost generations how to parent? We can't put the kids in front of the TV. It's not a cheap babysitter. You've still got to show the love and compassion to the children to stop this cycle.

When I was elected in 2008, I remember in the early summer Saskatchewan had signed on to this tripartite agreement. Then I've seen Alberta, Manitoba, Quebec, Prince Edward Island, and Nova Scotia....

Chief, I'm going through my notes here, and I'd just like to get some further clarification, if you can. Has the AFN studied these agreements? Secondly, has the Assembly of First Nations talked with the provincial governments about these agreements? And thirdly, was the Assembly of First Nations engaged at the regional level and community levels? That's something I would like to know.

[National Chief Shawn A-in-chut Atleo]

I can ask Jonathan if the Assembly of First Nations was directly involved, and maybe I'll follow up with a few thoughts of my own.

[Jonathan Thompson, Director, Social Development, Assembly of First Nations]

Thanks, National Chief.

Thank you, Mr. Chair and committee members.

I would have to go back and begin with the Wen:de report and the work we did jointly with the Department of Indian Affairs on Wen:de. At that point in time we were, as Cindy and as the national chief have mentioned, engaged in a very thorough and exhaustive research and study on what it would take to get first nations child welfare agencies to an equitable and culturally appropriate place in this country. We engaged economists, first nations child welfare experts, and several hundred thousand dollars were expended on the part of the federal government to get the answer to what we were searching for.

We got that answer. Apparently, it wasn't to the liking of the government and it was shelved. It was at that point that the Department of Indian Affairs walked away and started to engage in one-on-one conversations, bypassing the Assembly of First Nations in a very direct fashion.

We certainly reached out to folks and to regions, both first nation regions and provincial bodies, but the willingness wasn't necessarily there.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

We will have to leave it at that, unfortunately.

National Chief, if you had something to add, maybe you can add it on to one of your remarks in response to an upcoming question.

[National Chief Shawn A-in-chut Atleo]

Sure.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

I'm sorry, we're quite over time on that. Thank you, Mr. Clarke.

Now we'll go to Monsieur Lévesque or Monsieur Lemay.

Monsieur Lévesque, allez-y.

[Yvon Lévesque, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for being here.

As you know, I represent Nunavik, as well as the Cree from James Bay. The Cree have told me that they have a lot of money. I have been in Cree villages. When you get up at 5 or 5:30 in the morning and you see 8- or 9-year-old children who are high as a kite or who have a bottle of beer in their hands, you ask them what they are doing and why. In turn, they ask you what else there is to do. It gives you food for thought.

At the same time, we have seen non-native villages, also isolated, where there is a lot of money. However, the suicide rate is the same. The way they commit suicide may be a little different.

I, myself, am an orphan. I was sent to residential schools, and I drove first nations’ families who were bringing their children to residential schools. I saw parents cry when they left their children and cry even more when we went back to get them because they could not communicate with them anymore. The children didn’t speak the same language their parents did.

I know there have been agreements. I see we have the First Nations Child and Family Services Joint National Policy Review. I will ask you the following question, and then the three of you can respond, if you wish.

What measures have been taken to implement these recommendations since the 2006 report on the action plan? How would you like to see all of the programs implemented, if we could negotiate nation to nation?

The floor is yours.

[Dr. Cindy Blackstock]

Thank you for your question.

I think it's really important to understand that almost nothing was done after those reports. There was a lot of goodwill and expertise and good debate in 2000, and there were 17 recommendations. The department would argue that some of them were partially implemented, including the funding of my organization, which is a national organization, but as we stand here today we don't receive a dime from the federal government. The recommendations to deal with the inequality for children, to make a real difference at the level of the child, were never implemented.

The department then said these recommendations from 2000 were getting dated and that's why there was the work with the Assembly of First Nations around the Wen:de report that Jonathan just talked about. That was completed. There were over 100 pages of economic spreadsheets showing where every dime would go, and there was a complete three-volume report showing the evidence of why it should go to these specific places. That too was shelved in favour of this new, enhanced approach.

You talked about the fact that when there is money in the community things sometimes don't get a lot better. The question before this committee is whether or not first nations children should get equitable services from the government. Is it legitimate for the government to give children less because of who they are? There are the other things you can point to: do we income-test child protection in rich families? No, we don't. We provide everybody with an equitable level of government services except for first nations children on reserve.

We know enough from the research that if provided with the flexibility for first nations the national chief talked about--we target poverty, poor housing, substance misuse, and enrichment of culture--we could substantially turn the page on this tragic history of the types of outcomes you're looking at with first nations kids.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

I don't want to barge in here, but we're on a time limit, and I know we wanted to get some answers from the national chief as well.

Go ahead, National Chief.

[National Chief Shawn A-in-chut Atleo]

Perhaps I can link to the other question as well, because these are important stories, the story of the suicide and the story of being in care. There are probably lots of other stories around.

The one I think is very relevant to our discussion was the death of a child from my community, Sherry Charlie in British Columbia. When I think about the policy developments we're referring to, I'm thinking does it take the death of children to spark these reviews and inquiries before it compels us to do policy work?

I was so proud to see all four of the party representatives stand with us in terms of education here on Parliament Hill recently. That's what's required. The issue is 150 years of a policy under the residential school system that had a very direct and specific objective of removing children from family, home, community, treaty, elders, territories. Therefore I don't even think equity is enough; we've got makeup work to do. The reconnection and the rebuilding of families so the experience you've related to.... That's the objective. On the issue of children being in care, we've got some reconnecting and reconciliation work to do between and among indigenous families and communities.

Let me conclude with this. We've got to put some focus on this.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

I'll add that we are joined here also by Jonathan Thompson. Mr. Thompson is the director for the health and social development secretariat at the Assembly of First Nations. We didn't have that on the agenda. We're glad to have you with us.

Monsieur Lévesque, je vous remercie de votre intervention.

Monsieur Payne, vous avez la parole pendant cinq minutes.

[LaVar Payne, Conservative, Medicine Hat, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I thought you were going to pass me by for a moment.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Not a chance, Mr. Payne.

[LaVar Payne, Conservative, Medicine Hat, AB]

I want to thank the witnesses for coming today.

I'm looking at a couple of pieces. In terms of the AG, she certainly made a number of recommendations. I'm looking at the responses. INAC has said that they certainly want to do those things.

In particular, I want to talk about one recommendation about the new funding formula to fund first nations agencies “that are directly linked with provincial legislation and standards”.

The department's response was that it “agrees that as new partnerships are entered into, based on the enhanced prevention approach, funding will be directly linked to activities that better support the needs of children in care and incorporate provincial legislation and practice standards”.

I think that is certainly the right approach. I believe that INAC is doing that.

We hear about some issues around funding. I would have to say that funding is always a question, and how much money is enough is always another question that seems to come about. I would like to point out that in fact our federal funding for child welfare has gone from about $193 million in 1996, under the previous Liberal government, to over $550 million in 2009-10 under our government.

Pardon me?

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

[Inaudible—Editor] We are talking about the children.

[LaVar Payne, Conservative, Medicine Hat, AB]

Are you making a point of order?

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Go ahead, Mr. Payne. You have the floor.

[LaVar Payne, Conservative, Medicine Hat, AB]

Thank you.

Basically, do you think more money is enough? What else do we need to do?

I know that we've talked about a number of agreements that are in place. I believe, National Chief, you said that certainly one particular model may not necessarily fit each particular province. There are a number of agreements in place, I understand, in Alberta, Saskatchewan, Nova Scotia, and so on.

One of the things I'd like to point out, in terms of Saskatchewan, is that there was an announcement made. Vice-Chief Guy Lonechild said:

Now with the announcement of prevention funding the First Nations Child and Family Service Agencies can start to work towards a truly positive change and will finally be able to look at other answers besides apprehension services to support children and families.

I understand what you're saying, National Chief. But is it only money, or do we need to make sure that we have engagement, as you suggested earlier, with the various first nations and the provinces?