Evidence of meeting #52 for Indigenous and Northern Affairs in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was information.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

10 a.m.

Bloc

Marc Lemay Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC

How do you think an aboriginal community of 2,000 people can possibly meet the requirements in your bill, especially clauses 4, 5 and 6, when it cannot even get computer access? You are asking aboriginal communities to perform accounting exercises in accordance with the principles of the Canadian Institute of Chartered Accountants.

You should speak with the parliamentary secretary. The communities in his riding are so remote that they do not even have access to high-speed Internet or anything else, so they cannot prepare reports. What's more, their reports are often late.

How do you think those communities will be able to meet the requirements in clauses 4, 5 and 6 of your bill, in the unfortunate event it is passed?

10 a.m.

Conservative

Kelly Block Conservative Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar, SK

Mr. Chair, in the development of this bill I consulted with the House of Commons legal counsel. These sections ask no more of a first nations chief and council than is already being asked within current legislation.

10 a.m.

Bloc

Marc Lemay Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC

Do I understand correctly that clause 3 of your bill requires aboriginal communities to disclose the remuneration paid to chiefs and councillors, if it is drawn from federal money?

10 a.m.

Conservative

Kelly Block Conservative Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar, SK

That's right. This bill will require that of first nations chiefs and councils subject to the Indian Act.

10 a.m.

Bloc

Marc Lemay Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC

Ms. Block, are you aware that, in most cases, those who earn $200,000 to $250,000, or even more, are not paid using federal money?

How will that information be obtained?

10 a.m.

Conservative

Kelly Block Conservative Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar, SK

Mr. Chair, when I introduced this bill I made it clear in any conversations that I had regarding the bill that this is not about what a first nations chief and council determine they will set for themselves. It's not about the numbers. They absolutely have the right to set their own levels of remuneration, and this bill doesn't question that right. It simply calls for them to publicly disclose this information to their membership.

10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bruce Stanton

Twenty seconds, Mr. Lemay.

10 a.m.

Bloc

Marc Lemay Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC

Oh. No, I'm done.

10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bruce Stanton

Very well. Thank you, Mr. Lemay.

It is now over to Ms. Crowder.

10 a.m.

NDP

Jean Crowder NDP Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC

Thank you, Ms. Block, for coming before the committee.

You're probably aware that when legislation that impacts on first nations, Métis, and Inuit comes before this committee, one of the questions that we always ask is about the duty to consult. Now we have another example of a piece of legislation coming before this committee for which the duty to consult that's been mandated by the Supreme Court of Canada has not been fulfilled. I think that arguably most people are in support of accountability and transparency, but we can't disregard a process when it is a consistent message that we put out, so it's troubling that once again we're dealing with a piece of legislation that has not fulfilled that duty.

In our looking at the bill, a number of issues have arisen. I know a number of us have consistently said that it's important for chiefs and councils to be responsible to the people who elect them and not to Indian and Northern Affairs Canada. I don't think you'll find broad disagreement on that. Here, though, it appears that you're requesting a standard that's different from what other Canadians are subject to, and I want to refer to a couple of points before I get you to respond.

You're asking for federally funded dollars, and a significant amount of those dollars comes in through grants and contribution agreements. I don't know if you're aware that Treasury Board guidelines on contribution agreements, under appendix C, make no mention of salaries, even with respect to people who act as third parties to transfer money to other people. The guidelines just have a lot about audit requirements.

What I hear you saying about this bill is that all the other Canadians who get grants or contribution agreements don't need to release their salaries, but first nations do, so you're setting up another double standard here.

We're fairly used to that. First nations are governed by double standards all over the place, whether it's funding on reserves for child welfare, education, health care, or clean drinking water. We consistently say that it's perfectly acceptable for first nations to be treated as second-class citizens. Once again, I see you implementing a double standard by requiring something from them that we don't ask for other people on grants and contributions. That's one aspect of it.

The second aspect is that you've included under clause 6:

Despite anything in the Privacy Act, where, at the end of the period referred to in subsection 5(3), the Schedule of Remuneration has not been made publicly available, the Minister shall make it publicly available.

The way I read this—and it will be interesting to hear from some lawyers on it—is that all other Canadians are subject to the Privacy Act, but we're going to override the Privacy Act in the case of first nations. We're not going to have it apply to them, because somehow or other they're a different class of citizen. This is another example of saying first nations don't deserve the same treatment as other Canadians and that we're going to allow the government to override the Privacy Act in this case.

I wonder if you could explain to me and to other Canadians who may be listening why it's okay to treat first nations differently from other people in this country.

10:05 a.m.

Conservative

Kelly Block Conservative Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar, SK

I don't agree with the premise of your question at all. This is not about asking for something more from first nations chiefs and councils in regard to their remuneration and salaries than we ask from other elected officials, including municipal leaders, provincial leaders, and federal leaders.

10:05 a.m.

NDP

Jean Crowder NDP Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC

Excuse me, Mrs. Block, I would like you to address the contribution agreement and the Privacy Act. My question was specifically to you. I want you talk about the contribution agreements under appendix C of the Treasury Board guidelines and the privacy legislation that's currently in place. Those are my two questions for you.

10:05 a.m.

Conservative

Kelly Block Conservative Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar, SK

By introducing this bill, I am creating a piece of legislation that will call for first nations chiefs and councils to publicly disclose their remuneration and salaries. They will be given 120 days after the close of their fiscal year, at which time the minister will be allowed to post it on the INAC website.

10:05 a.m.

NDP

Jean Crowder NDP Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC

That is not my question to you, Mrs. Block. I want you to explain the privacy legislation.

10:05 a.m.

Conservative

Kelly Block Conservative Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar, SK

I didn't come here to explain the privacy legislation.

10:05 a.m.

NDP

Jean Crowder NDP Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC

But it's in your bill. It's under clause 6 of your bill.

10:05 a.m.

Conservative

Kelly Block Conservative Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar, SK

I came here to talk about—

10:05 a.m.

NDP

Jean Crowder NDP Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC

But then why did you include it in your bill?

10:05 a.m.

Conservative

Kelly Block Conservative Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar, SK

—the introduction of this private member's bill, which I believe is a good bill for all first nations community members, many of whom have been calling for this legislation.

10:05 a.m.

NDP

Jean Crowder NDP Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC

That's the end of my questions.

10:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bruce Stanton

Thank you, Ms. Crowder.

We'll go to Mr. Payne.

March 8th, 2011 / 10:05 a.m.

Conservative

LaVar Payne Conservative Medicine Hat, AB

Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and welcome, Mrs. Block, to our committee.

This is an important bill that you're bringing forward. I know that we've heard from a number of band members, particularly from Nova Scotia, who want to see transparency and good governance. I believe I heard you say that you had some emails and letters from band members. I'm wondering if you could expand on anything that you've already told us about what these band members want to see from their first nations chiefs and councils.

10:10 a.m.

Conservative

Kelly Block Conservative Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar, SK

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

As I mentioned in my opening remarks and in my responses to some of the members who have already asked questions, I understood that trying to access this information was a long-standing issue for many first nations' community members.

Since I've introduced Bill C-575, I have had numerous emails, letters, and conversations with first nations community members telling me of their concerns regarding the issue in their own communities. I have kept from commenting on specific first nations and the issues that are particular to their communities, but they were simply saying they need to have access to this information so they can hold their leaders accountable when the time comes for them to be re-elected.

10:10 a.m.

Conservative

LaVar Payne Conservative Medicine Hat, AB

Thank you.

Mr. Chair, if I have time, I will split it with Mr. Clarke.

10:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bruce Stanton

Sure, by all means.