Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Dec. 7th, 2023

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Yes, and we're here now. I know you want.... You will have a chance to get the floor. You have lots of things....

Right now, the question I have is, shall clause 3 carry?

[Jaime Battiste, Liberal, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

We just voted on clause 3.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

No, I ruled on amendment CPC-1.2. Amendment CPC-1.2 is out, but we still have clause 3. Clause 3, as was originally in the bill, is the one that's being called, without the amendment, as originally stated. We will have a recorded vote.

(Clause 3 agreed to: yeas 11; nays 0)

Thank you.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

Mr. Chair, if I could—

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

I'm moving through this. There will be a chance for the—

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

I think I got in before you called the next clause.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Are you raising a point of order?

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

No, I'm raising the motion that we tabled on Friday to be discussed right now. I'd like to discuss that motion quickly, if I could.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

I'm not recognizing you at this point.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

Why?

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

There's not a point of order, and we have committee business that we're working on.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

We did the motion. We tabled it on Friday, as per the rules.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

That's right.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

We gave proper notice. We caught you between clauses. We're raising this to quickly talk about a motion that is of extreme importance. I'd like to do that now, please.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Then please proceed.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

As happened on Friday, I'll just quickly read the motion:

That the Standing Committee on Indigenous and Northern Affairs report to the House that it: (a) recognizes that the Chiefs of Ontario and the Attawapiskat First Nation are taking the federal government to court over the carbon tax; (b) recognizes the statement of the Chiefs of Ontario said the carbon tax is “discriminatory”, “anti-reconciliatory” and “has a disproportionate impact on First Nations”; (c) recognizes that the Liberal Government “refused to negotiate with First Nations in Ontario” and “refused to enter into good-faith conversations”, according to the Chiefs of Ontario; and (d) agrees with the Chiefs of Ontario, that First Nations should be exempt from the carbon tax.

I'd like to quickly speak to this.

For the committee to contemplate this important motion, I think it's important that we do what the Liberals were not prepared to do, which is to listen to the voices of the Chiefs of Ontario. In a press release dated November 30, 2023, the Chiefs of Ontario released the following statement regarding a judicial review it has filed on the Greenhouse Gas Pollution Pricing Act:

Chiefs of Ontario and Attawapiskat First Nation have filed a judicial review today after Canada refused to negotiate with First Nations in Ontario to alleviate the discriminatory and anti-reconciliatory application of the Greenhouse Gas and Pollution Act...on First Nations. The [Greenhouse Gas and Pollution Act] established Canada's carbon pricing regime, which although designed to be revenue-neutral, has a disproportionate impact on First Nations and their members.

“First Nations see the reality of climate change every single day and expect Canada to address it. However, we do not accept a regime that creates new burdens on First Nations which already face deep infrastructure and economic challenges. Canada should be working with us to confront the climate crisis and close gaps on reserve instead of creating policy in an ivory tower that exacerbates the affordability issues our citizens face,”....

That was said by Grand Chief Abram Benedict. He holds the environment portfolio at Chiefs of Ontario, and he is also the Grand Chief of Akwesasne.

They state:

The [Greenhouse Gas and Pollution Act] is intended to effect change using price signals—moving consumers away from greenhouse gas-emitting fuels. First Nations face significant infrastructure and economic gaps making it difficult to transition to less carbon-intensive alternatives. First Nations, who already have higher poverty rates than the rest of Canada's population, are therefore forced to absorb these extra costs.

I'll go on to another quote from Chief Benedict. He says,“The Charge is not supposed to generate revenue for Canada, but when it's applied to us it does”.

I'll go on with another quote:

“We don't get the rebates and returns that other communities get and it's unfair”.

Chiefs of Ontario was mandated by all First Nations in Ontario to negotiate an end to carbon pricing on First Nations in a resolution that First Nations across Ontario passed with full consensus. However, Canada has refused to enter into good-faith conversations to resolve the harms caused by the carbon charge.

The carbon charge has applied to Ontario since 2019. Producers, distributors, and importers pay the charge to the federal government but then pass on the charge by way of higher prices to consumers. The GGPPA is designed to be revenue-neutral, with the money going back to the province of origin. Individuals and households receive 90% of collected charges back through the Climate Action Incentive Payment...(which is not readily [available] to First Nations) and 10% is returned through federal programs. Through these rebates, most households [allegedly] get more back than they pay.

The Parliamentary Budget Officer has confirmed that is not true.

They state:

However, that is not the case for First Nations. The Federal Government has pledged to return 0.7% of the total Charge proceeds from Ontario to First Nations communities in Ontario. This amount is insufficient given the increased costs of the charge on First Nations and their members.

I could go on, Chair. There is lots more to say on this issue, but we do see that there is significant importance to having this motion voted on, to have a conversation about it and to get an idea of where the committee is. Hopefully, they're in a position where they're willing to study this further and talk about the hardships that have been put on first nations by this government.

Thank you, Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Thank you, Mr. Schmale.

I have Mr. Viersen next on my list.

[Arnold Viersen, Conservative, Peace River—Westlock, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I think we need to study this for sure. The reality is that first nations living in northern Alberta and northern Ontario are not of those “families who receive more back than they pay”. In fact, disproportionately it is northern remote communities that are affected to their detriment by the carbon tax. First of all, it's colder. They pay the carbon tax on the natural gas to heat all of the first nations buildings on reserve. They have to pay their tax on that the same as everywhere else, and in many cases, the carbon tax is more than the actual energy costs on the natural gas bill.

It's the same story on the propane. My own bill...but also I know that people send me their bills and show me them often. The actual energy cost is less than what the carbon tax costs. That means that 50% of the cost of heating the building is carbon tax.

Then there's the diesel fuel. Many of these communities are generating their power from diesel fuel, and when they're paying for that diesel fuel, again, that carbon tax is being placed on there, making it more expensive to do. There's a ratcheting-up effect that happens with this.

It takes energy to does everything. It doesn't matter what you're doing. Whether you're travelling, heating your home or processing something, it takes energy. Along the way, whatever you're doing, there's this carbon tax that keeps increasing and increasing the cost.

It's not like the GST. In fact, the GST is charged on the carbon tax. The GST is more of a flow-through tax. You can then get the rebate downstream, and it's only the end-user who pays the GST. No, the carbon tax is added to the price of everything the whole way through. People put that on the cost of their products when they go to sell them, and the next wholesaler along the way puts their markup on top of that, increasing that. There's an exponential growth on the carbon tax.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Wait one second, Mr. Viersen.

Go ahead, Madame Gill.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Mr. Chair, sorry for interrupting the member, but the interpretation has stopped.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

We will check.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

All right. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Thank you, Madame Gill.

Mr. Viersen, please continue.

[Arnold Viersen, Conservative, Peace River—Westlock, AB]

Where was I, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

I think you were just concluding....