Evidence of meeting #19 for Industry, Science and Technology in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was railways.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Glen Fisher  Board of Directors, Canadian Association of Railway Suppliers
Jay Nordenstrom  Director of Government and Industry Affairs, Canadian Association of Railway Suppliers
Ian Burney  Chief Trade Negotiator, Bilateral and Regional, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade (International Trade)
Marvin Hildebrand  Director, Bilateral Market Access Division, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade (International Trade)

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Order.

Welcome, ladies and gentlemen. We'll start the 19th meeting of the Standing Committee on Industry, Science and Technology and continue our study of the manufacturing sector.

Before I turn to our witnesses, I want to welcome a very special guest at the committee. Dr. Isolde Victory is head of research services at the House of Lords in Britain, and she will be observing the committee for about thirty minutes, I believe. She is here for about ten days to observe how the research services work. She is leading a project to review the House of Lords library research services in light of its own development plans and its changing client base.

Dr. Victory, would you stand up and be recognized by the committee?

3:30 p.m.

Some hon. members

Hear, hear!

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Dr. Victory is observing the excellent work done by our analysts and researchers.

I want to point out to members that a briefing book on manufacturing should have been sent to your offices. I hope you've received it. If you haven't, then certainly contact me or the clerk.

I'll move right to our witnesses, and I'll start with the Canadian Association of Railway Suppliers. We welcome Glen Fisher, who's with the board of directors; Jay Nordenstrom, the director of government and industry affairs; and Rachel Pereira, the associate director of industry affairs.

After opening presentations of about ten minutes, we will go right into questions from the members.

Mr. Fisher, I believe you are making the presentation on behalf of your association. Please go ahead.

3:30 p.m.

Glen Fisher Board of Directors, Canadian Association of Railway Suppliers

It's an honour to be invited to speak to members of Parliament, members of this committee. I thank you for the invitation, and I'm impressed with the fact that there are probably people here who know as much about railways and transportation as I do. I will include that importance in my presentation and my explanations.

The Canadian railway sector is of key importance to the Canadian economy and Canadian development. As all Canadians are aware, the country really was knitted together by the railways. The railways account for moving something like 24% of all of the exports from Canada, and quite a large proportion of internal freight, about 60% on a tonnage basis, moves by rail.

One of the lesser-known things about the rail industry in Canada is that through all of the debate and discussions and changes in technology and infrastructure, we actually do have the most efficient railways in the world. Canadian freight rates are slightly lower than the U.S., and that really is what puts us in the category of having the lowest per tonne kilometre freight costs in the entire world. We really do have efficient freight railways.

Another important part of that, of course, is that some of our products, such as grain, have to move further to port, to ocean, to tidewater, in Canada than in any other country in the world, except possibly Russia. For these reasons we really have to stay on our toes to be competitive all of the time.

The Canadian Association of Railway Suppliers is an association with about 130 members out of about 500 small and large--some very large--manufacturers and supply organizations. We supply the services and products that keep the Canadian railways running. A great deal of our effort in maintaining our market with our own railways is keeping on our toes in providing innovation that is specific to the Canadian railway needs. Again, that relates to things such as fuel efficiency, being able to operate in the winter, having products that will work in minus 40-degree, minus 50-degree temperatures. Indeed, some of the lowest recorded temperatures in Canada were in northern Ontario, in the minus 70-degree range. To have lubricants and airbrake systems that will operate in those temperatures is no easy task, but our railways do it, and we are the people who provide them with the material and equipment that make that possible. We're also fortunate to be able to export to other countries. Of course, the United States is one of our largest sources of business as well.

The Canadian Association of Railway Suppliers members total over 60,000 employees. There's a big labour pool involved. We probably have more employees than the railways themselves. That is to say the labour that goes into making components, everything from paint to consulting engineering, that the railways use represents even more labour than the railways themselves.

Everything the government does in relation to transportation legislation, industry legislation, tax, and so forth affects our members and our industry. It's important that we cooperate with each other.

I'm very pleased that this is really our first presentation to your committee, and I hope we'll be invited frequently as things change in the future.

We have a list of things that we consider shortcomings or disadvantages in existing government policy. One of the things that is hurting us now that free trade has evolved is the capital cost allowance for tax purposes, depreciation for tax purposes, of railway equipment. The reason this is hurting us is that there's a big difference between the writeoff rates in Canada and the United States.

With a lot of our equipment being acquired on either side of the border, and the U.S. railroads also buying in Canada, the leasing companies are seriously affected by this difference in the capital cost allowance.

If a U.S. leasing company is leasing equipment to a Canadian railroad for a particular purpose, chances are that they will not only buy their equipment from a U.S. supplier, but neither the Canadian government nor our association will see much in the way of income taxes and so forth from that industry. We won't see any employment from it. So it's a negative incentive to do business in Canada in terms of equipment purchases.

We would like to see matching of the capital cost allowance with that of the U.S. for railway equipment.

We need to invest in environmentally sustainable transportation, that is to say, to continue to improve our fuel efficiency. We already, on a tonne-kilometre basis, are about 500% better than trucks. That is, we use about 20% of the fuel that trucks use for the same tonne kilometres.

This all has to do with the equipment, the roads, the tires, and the steel wheels on steel rails, which have substantially less friction, and so forth. Also, we have very much bigger engines in our locomotives that are more fuel efficient. That's an important factor. Over the last twenty years, the railways and the railway equipment manufacturers have squeezed another 7% efficiency out of locomotive fuel consumption for the same tonnage of freight movement. And we see other improvements possible.

We need to look more at using environmentally friendly fuels, such as biodiesel. It has been done experimentally. It works. It's exactly equivalent in performance to petroleum diesel, and it's certainly readily available in Canada and is a sustainable fuel; it will be there forever. We can use it and we can grow it. We get it as waste fat from animal processing, and there are many sources. In fact, a subsidiary of Maple Leaf Foods in Montreal is the biggest producer of it in Canada.

So there are things like that that are important to research and development.

Commercialization of research is important to us; that is to say, we would like to see our own members more involved in innovation and research. Programs such as the freight incentives program didn't have a very large budget, but it was a step in the right direction.

If other programs, such as the rail technology development fund, could be directed to suppliers' research that the railway equipment companies can perform, that would be a very, very positive application of funds released from the fuel tax.

And last, I'd like to mention the scientific research and experimental development tax incentive program tax credits. Some of our members have used those extensively. This is the nice thing in that when a tax credit helps a company justify spending money in R and D, and then, when the R and D is completed the product is developed and sold, the money certainly comes back to the government in the form of economic progress and taxes on the earnings from those products. So it's a nice feature.

But our request would be that it be made easier to use. That is to say, perhaps Industry Canada could be the intermediary for acquiring those tax credits, because at the present time, the tax auditors in CRA really don't know much about the industry, and their approach has to be a defensive one wherein they're defending reducing these credits or vetting them so they're reduced in size and magnitude, even though they were approved in the first place and the company has gone ahead and done the development. I don't think the tax people would be upset by having that responsibility moved over to Industry Canada, because it really is a nuisance to them too. They don't have the qualified people to evaluate these.

That's a very quick summary of our industry thoughts and needs. I hope we'll be able to have some interesting discussion and answer any questions you may have.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Thank you very much, Mr. Fisher.

We will go to questions, starting with Mr. Lapierre for six minutes.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Jean Lapierre Liberal Outremont, QC

Thank you very much.

First of all, thank you for your presentation.

On the capital cost allowances, we have heard that coming from the whole rail sector. As Minister of Transport, I supported that, but the Minister of Finance would never listen to me. I think this is some type of representation that should be made by your association in conjunction with the railways in the consultations for the next budget. I know it comes back every year, but it's worth really pushing that.

When I saw your name on the list, I thought, well, those guys must be making a huge fortune, because I hear of new investment being made by CN and CP, and those are probably your major clients. These guys are now reinvesting a lot, especially on the west coast. Is the business booming?

3:40 p.m.

Board of Directors, Canadian Association of Railway Suppliers

Glen Fisher

The business is doing well, but our annual growth in freight revenues on the railroads has not been as high as the annual growth in trucking revenues, and to me, that means we've lost market share. If we've lost market share, it means there's going to be more pollution, and ultimately, freight costs will be higher rather than lower to the public and the shippers. So losing market share is not a good thing. But, yes, the railway industry is doing well, because the economy has been doing very well.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Jean Lapierre Liberal Outremont, QC

But is the problem of losing market share an effect of the fact that you haven't enough capacity and that has become a problem, especially on the west coast? Has it had the effect that you cannot keep up the pace of traffic that you could have, because of the equipment and the delays and everything?

3:40 p.m.

Board of Directors, Canadian Association of Railway Suppliers

Glen Fisher

That's an interesting question. A very short answer is no, there is no constraining capacity problem that would cause a short-term loss in market share. I would say there isn't even a long-term capacity problem, but there are things that need to be done to maintain the capacity.

One of the outstanding things that happened in the last few years is that CN and CP agreed to share the two tracks that run between Kamloops and Vancouver. Railway research takes a long time to happen. We worked on that more than twenty years ago and saw it as being a very positive thing, but it took that long for the railways to finally come to the point where the capacity on those two single-track lines had reached a tough decision point on how much capital would have to be spent to maintain the growth in traffic, and here was an easy solution: to share the track. That gave them an increase of somewhere between 200% and 400% in capacity.

There are lots of things such as that that the railways are doing elsewhere. They're running longer trains. In the mountains, they've been running radio-controlled locomotives in the middle of the train to allow a longer train to operate, and they're using those in more areas than before. There are many things of that kind.

Freight car weights have been increased from 263,000 pounds to 284,000 pounds, with no change in the rest of the car. This does require some strengthening of a few bridges on branch lines that were not originally built for those kinds of loads.

So there's a lot of flexibility in things that are being done that essentially keep the capacity ahead of the demand.

3:45 p.m.

Jay Nordenstrom Director of Government and Industry Affairs, Canadian Association of Railway Suppliers

I think it should be said as well that there is a differentiation between railways and the railway manufacturers. We all hear that the railways are making a lot of money now. If you'd bought into shares of CP and CN, you're doing quite well. It's the manufacturing sector for railway suppliers that we're concerned about.

There are 500 companies now that either manufacture or supply goods to the railways, and as we see, Bell Canada and Telus are new members, with their GPS systems and RFIDs. It's very high-tech now.

We have to make sure that when there's capacity or when we're trying to meet capacity and demand with the Pacific gateway or urban transits, the companies that are building it are healthy here in Canada and there is a healthy economic incentive to manufacture and supply these goods, as opposed to going elsewhere internationally.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Jean Lapierre Liberal Outremont, QC

Talking about maintenance now, with the number of accidents that we've seen rising, I guess that's more potential business for you guys. I saw that in your submission, where you were talking short lines or passenger rail. In those two sectors, especially in the short line, the lifespan of most of that equipment has probably been dépassé. So the problem is that those companies that bought the equipment can't afford to replace the equipment or do the maintenance.

I know we had a lot of pressure from those small companies trying to upgrade their equipment, and it's the same thing for passenger rail. With VIA, the equipment is so old now that most of their employees are probably younger than the equipment. So I guess there's potential business there that the government could help in other ways.

3:45 p.m.

Board of Directors, Canadian Association of Railway Suppliers

Glen Fisher

Absolutely.

The Canadian manufacturers have been very much involved in most of those issues in the past. Certainly passenger rail equipment, like the LRC train, which VIA operates, is one of the most successful train projects. It originated in Canada. It was before its time. It's still at the top of technology, and it's one of the things that got Bombardier into railway equipment manufacturing generally. And there are other examples of that.

But yes, with regard to supplying replacement locomotives to the short lines, you've probably heard of RailPower. They're a company that makes hybrid locomotives. They're in Canada, and they have a lot of customers in the U.S and will get more as time goes on. They have a very good product that is extremely fuel efficient, is quiet, and has low emissions because of the much smaller engine and the battery power it uses. It charges the battery and runs like a hybrid automobile.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Thank you.

Thank you very much, Monsieur Lapierre.

We'll go to Monsieur Vincent.

3:45 p.m.

Bloc

Robert Vincent Bloc Shefford, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Good afternoon, Mr. Fisher.

Mr. Lapierre told us that the Standing Committee on Finance might be the best venue. I would point out that representatives of your industry appeared before the Standing Committee on Finance on November 30, 1999, November 1, 2001, and November 7, 2002. So you have already appeared before the same committee three times.

I was also under the impression that in 2000 the capital cost allowance, the CCA, was increased from 10% to 15%. If I understand correctly, you would like a 30% CCA to have the same advantages as other carriers, like planes, trains, and others that do the same kind of transportation, and benefit from a depreciation spread over five years.

So you want the same 30% depreciation. That would give you the same incentive that would enable you to operate. Is that correct?

3:45 p.m.

Board of Directors, Canadian Association of Railway Suppliers

Glen Fisher

Yes, that's absolutely correct. There's the problem of other modes having faster write-downs and better capital cost allowances than we have, and also the problem that I mentioned for our own suppliers of there being a tendency to choose U.S. leasing companies and U.S. suppliers because of the lower capital cost allowance to the U.S. leasing companies. But the competition with the other modes is an important aspect of it too.

3:50 p.m.

Bloc

Robert Vincent Bloc Shefford, QC

I would like you to tell me a little bit more about leasing. There are Canadian lessors, and some companies buy their cars in the United States. I would like to know the difference between Canadian and American lessors, because that aspect seems equally important for you for buying new cars. Given current trends, you need, among other things, longer rail cars.

I would like to hear your opinion on leasing.

3:50 p.m.

Board of Directors, Canadian Association of Railway Suppliers

Glen Fisher

We have three renting companies that are members of our association. There may be more, but there are three fairly large ones that we're quite familiar with and work with. They are the ones that are affected most by this. They also have U.S.-related parts of their companies. Some of them are the same company, and they have a Canadian subsidiary that works with leasing here.

The railway equipment manufacturing...obviously, railway equipment is wearing out and needs to be replaced. We used to have a larger manufacturing industry than we have now. I can't bring the numbers to mind instantly--it is probably about 50% of what it was about 25 years ago--and that would have to be increased for the volume of cars needed by the railways today compared with 25 years ago. One of the things we've done is improve the efficiency of the train operation so that our manufacturers, our suppliers, are not selling as many cars because the users of the cars are being more efficient. They don't leave them sitting in the sidings as long, so we don't sell as many cars. There are two sides to that. Ultimately, the efficiency is better for everybody, for the manufacturers, for the railways, and for the country.

There's been a lot of concentration of rail car manufacture in the U.S., and there are only a couple of very big companies now, so that's what we're competing with in the U.S.

3:50 p.m.

Bloc

Robert Vincent Bloc Shefford, QC

You have to put out an additional 23% to end up with the same transportation rate as in the United States, the same cost effectiveness in terms of transportation. Is that still the case today?

3:50 p.m.

Board of Directors, Canadian Association of Railway Suppliers

Glen Fisher

I'm not sure what you mean--23% more than what option?

3:50 p.m.

Bloc

Robert Vincent Bloc Shefford, QC

If we compare Canada and the United States, for equipment or transportation to be the same, it cost you 23% more than in the United States.

3:50 p.m.

Director of Government and Industry Affairs, Canadian Association of Railway Suppliers

Jay Nordenstrom

In the U.S. they can write off their rail equipment in eight years whereas in Canada it's twenty years. To bring it up to 30% would pretty much bring us on par, and that would be harmonized, as far as cost analysis to that.

3:50 p.m.

Board of Directors, Canadian Association of Railway Suppliers

Glen Fisher

That would be a good summary perspective of the 23% difference for the rail cars themselves. They are only a small part of the whole, of course, but they are a very significant part, and the investment in rail cars is a significant item on the railways' balance sheets and is a significant income to our members and a significant portion of the employment of our members in Canada. So we lose something on that.

The problem is more complex than that, of course, because some rail cars only operate in Canada. Some operate internationally and some operate only in the United States. There are little differences in the investment criteria for those, and of course in the tax rates applicable to those. If they stay in the United States, obviously the Canadian railways will lease from our U.S. leasing company. If they're used in international service, they could be either one or the other, whichever is cheaper for the railway, and we generally lose out on that because the U.S. ones will be cheaper, as you've described it.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Thank you.

We'll go to Mr. Carrie now.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Colin Carrie Conservative Oshawa, ON

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank the witnesses for coming here today. As you know, we're undertaking a study of the manufacturing sector in Canada, and our big interest now is to see what the government can do to help in the challenges facing the manufacturing sector. We've heard that really right now it's like a perfect storm in a lot of ways.

I was really encouraged when I heard a former Minister of Transport say that he was supportive of changing the capital cost allowance.

I was wondering, with the new government, have you had the opportunity to bring the railways' capital cost case to finance officials with the new government, and if yes, what responses were you given?

3:55 p.m.

Director of Government and Industry Affairs, Canadian Association of Railway Suppliers

Jay Nordenstrom

Glen presented two weeks ago to the Standing Committee on Finance. There was difficulty with the committee appreciating why we would need these tax incentives when we were making so much money. We talked about the shares being so high, but we really have to make that differentiation between the railways and the manufacturers. They need to buy what they need to make sure they're meeting their demand, but whether they're buying from us and we're contributing to the economic footprint in Canada or they're doing it somewhere else is the question we need to pose. We need to make sure we have a very competitive environment so that we can continue doing research and development and being world leaders in innovation.

We've done so much to automate ourselves and to become very self-sufficient as a sector. We see other emerging countries like China simply buying up technology. They don't want to buy from us; they want to learn how we do it and reproduce it themselves. If we don't sell it to them, they'll just rip it apart and figure out how to do it.

That's our reality. Whether that's legitimate or not, it's the context in which we have to compete. So we have to make sure we have a competitive environment here in Canada for rail manufacturers.