Evidence of meeting #43 for Industry, Science and Technology in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was report.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Hank Intven  Former Member of Telecom Policy Review Panel, As an Individual
Kirsten Embree  Counsel, Fraser Milner Casgrain LLP, Canadian Association of Internet Providers
John Piercy  Board Member, Canadian Cable Systems Alliance

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

We will call to order the 43rd meeting of the Standing Committee on Industry, Science and Technology.

The order of the day, pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), is continuation of our study on the deregulation of the telecommunications sector. For the first hour and a half we have as a witness Mr. Hank Intven, as an individual, but representing the Telecom Policy Review Panel.

Welcome, Mr. Intven. Thank you very much for coming before us today. There were three members of the panel, but you are representing the entire panel here today. You will have up to ten minutes for an opening statement, and then we will go directly to questions from members.

I believe members are very interested in this topic. Obviously, we've been hearing on this subject for some time now.

Mr. Intven, we look forward to your comments.

3:30 p.m.

Hank Intven Former Member of Telecom Policy Review Panel, As an Individual

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Members of the committee, thank you for inviting me, Dr. Gerri Sinclair, and André Tremblay to appear before the committee to speak about the report we prepared as members of the Telecom Policy Review Panel. Unfortunately, prior commitments prevented Dr. Sinclair and Monsieur Tremblay from joining me here today. They've asked me to represent the panel and to do my best to assist the committee in its deliberations.

The TPR panel was established in April 2005 to undertake the first comprehensive review of Canadian telecom policy and regulation in about 30 years. Our panel's mandate was to conduct an independent review covering three broad areas, namely, the telecom regulatory framework, access to broadband and advanced telecom services, and the adoption of information and communications technologies by Canadians. The panel was assisted by a secretariat that included some of the top telecom experts and consultants in Canada. We received written input from a wide range of Canadian stakeholders in the telecom sector. We held several public fora, and met with Canadian and international telecom experts, regulators, policy-makers, and members of the general public.

We presented our final report on March 22 of last year. Three major themes underline many of the recommendations of our final report. The first is the need to clarify the objectives of Canadian telecom policy and regulation.

We proposed that the objectives of the current policies contained in the Telecommunications Act be clarified in order to emphasize three main objectives: first, promoting affordable access to advanced telecommunications in all regions of Canada; second, achieving certain specific and important social objectives such as access to telecommunications for persons with disabilities, improved public safety, protecting privacy and limiting public nuisance caused by telecommunications networks; and, third, improving the efficiency of telecommunications markets and the productivity of the Canadian economy.

The first of these objectives is not radically different from those traditionally pursued by Canadian regulators. Both relate to providing affordable access to telecommunications for Canadians. However, our report also suggests that more emphasis needs to be placed on a third set of objectives, those related to economic efficiency and productivity.

A second theme underlying our report is that telecom policy should rely on market forces as much as possible to achieve Canada's telecom policy objectives. Regulatory intervention should be reduced in areas where market forces can do the job as well or better.

A third theme of the report provides that where the market won't achieve important telecom policy objectives, then smarter and more targeted policy initiatives and regulatory intervention should be developed to achieve those objectives.

It has now been almost a year since the panel released its final report. The report has been well received in industry and policy circles as well as in the media. Most commentators have said that the recommendations were timely and consistent with Canadian needs, as well as with international trends and telecom policy and regulation.

The government has taken some significant first steps to implement the panel's recommendations. In particular, the government has issued a policy direction to the CRTC, as it is authorized to do under section 8 of the Telecommunications Act, requiring the commission to interpret the rather broad and sometimes conflicting objectives of that act in a more market-oriented way.

This policy direction is based on the one recommended by the panel, and it brings the Canadian government's expressed regulatory policy for the telecom sector more closely in line with that of our trading partners.

In addition, the government's orders in council on VOIP and forbearance are consistent with the panel's recommendations to rely more on market forces where those will achieve Canada's telecom policy goals, and to reduce regulatory intervention that interferes with the achievement of those goals.

Today's fixed local telecom access markets, including the VoIP market segment, are highly competitive, with a range of sophisticated and well-financed service providers vying to provide Canadians with among the highest quality and lowest priced services in the world. The new entrants to local telecom markets, including the Canadian cable industry, have demonstrated themselves to be first-class providers of advanced broadband and now VOIP services, who can easily hold their own against the incumbent telecom carriers such as Bell Canada and Telus.

The TPR panel recognized the reality that the CRTC, Industry Canada, and other government policy makers had worked hard to achieve for over two decades, namely, making Canada's telecom markets among the most competitive and dynamic in the world. Today our telecom suppliers are, in most market segments, producing the types of low-cost advanced services that we need to maintain and increase Canada's economic and social welfare.

The panel saw the shift towards a more market-oriented and less regulated local telecom sector as being essential for Canadians to take advantage of the potential that new telecom technologies offer. Today's markets are very dynamic, and the technologies and trends are increasingly global. It would be very risky for Canada to require or permit our regulators to devise regulatory approaches aimed at supporting one particular technology or one business model, and to handicap others in order to achieve a predetermined industry structure. Yet this was the effect of some of the CRTC's regulatory approaches over the past years.

Some of the commission's more intrusive regulatory approaches were aimed at supporting CLECs that relied heavily on the resale of wholesale network services by the incumbent telephone companies. Despite this regulatory support over the past decade, few CLECs have survived. In the meantime, the Canadian cable industry, without significant regulatory support, has become a strong and successful provider of competitive telecom services to Canadians. The market players, and not the regulator, have succeeded in bringing the benefits of competition to Canada.

This experience and that of other countries we studied illustrates why the panel recommended more market-based approaches to regulation of local telecom markets. The experience also indicates why we believe the government has acted appropriately in implementing some of the panel's recommendations to deregulate local access markets.

While we would commend the government on starting the job of reforming Canadian telecom policy, my colleagues and I on the panel feel strongly that the government and Parliament should now move on to complete the job.

l would like to address some of the main areas of our report where we believe future action is urgently required by the Canadian government and by Parliament.

First, we believe that it is high time for Canada to modernize its telecom legislation to meet the requirements of 21st-century telecommunications. Most of our trading partners did this long ago. While we did enact a new Telecommunications Act in 1993, and l was privileged to be the chief external legal adviser on that legislation, l can share with you what our instructions were. We were asked to update, but not to change, the basic regulatory framework established for Canadian telephone and telegraph companies in the 1906 Railway Act. We were asked only to draft a few specific new initiatives, such as those introducing foreign ownership restrictions and overruling a Federal Court case in order to establish the forbearance power. While there have been several amendments since 1993, such as those related to international service licensing and telemarketing, there have not been changes to the fundamental legislative approach to economic regulation of the telecom industry since 1906, just over 100 years ago.

The legislative approach in the law today gave the board of railway commissioners and its successors, up to and including the CRTC, broad powers to do whatever they considered appropriate to achieve two very vague goals: to ensure that rates are “just and reasonable”, and that there is no “unjust discrimination” in the provision of telecommunications services. These two broad objectives have been interpreted heroically by the CRTC to regulate the telephone and now the telecommunications industry. They form the basis of a complex web of economic regulation that can change, depending on the views of current CRTC commissioners, without government or Parliament having any role in the matter. For example, the same two broad objectives have been used over the years to justify both monopoly and competitive provision of telecommunications.The law never changed. This is why the panel recommended that new telecom legislation be introduced, to establish a clear regulatory framework.

l don't have the time to describe all the recommendations in detail. That's done in our report. Let me just highlight a few points.

First, whatever one thinks of the government's recent orders to vary CRTC decisions, l don't think anyone in a modem industrialized democracy believes that the political arms of government should regularly interfere with the decision-making process of an independent professional telecom regulator. Many observers believe that it was timely and appropriate for the government to change the policy direction of the commission in both the VOIP and local forbearance areas. However, over the longer term, government and Parliament should develop clearer policy directions, which should then be administered by an independent professional regulator, and that should be done in legislation.

Next, our panel recommended that the new regulatory approaches set out in the telecom legislation should be more closely aligned to competition policy, rather than to monopoly public utility regulation principles. This is the clear trend in legislation in the U.S., the U.K., Europe, and among our other trading partners.

Our panel also noted that all industrialized countries recognize the importance of maintaining an independent professional telecom regulator, separate from the competition authorities. The only exception to this rule, New Zealand, declared its attempts to rely solely on economy-wide competition law to be a failure, and they have recently re-established a telecommunications regulator with specific expertise in the area.

So after looking at best international practices, our panel recommended a simple approach to applying the necessary expertise in telecom and competition policy to the telecom industry. We proposed a form of joint panel of the CRTC and the Competition Bureau that we called a “Telecom Competition Tribunal”, or TCT, as the most efficient solution to developing and applying good economic policies in the regulation of the telecom industry. The TCT would be a practical way to combine the telecom industry expertise of the CRTC with the expertise of the Competition Bureau in the economics of competition.

The TPR report recommended other legislative approaches that would bring Canada in line with, or in a leadership position in, telecom regulatory approaches adopted by OECD countries.

Finally, our panel recommended a number of new policy initiatives to meet the needs of 21st century Canada. While our core conclusion was that Canada should rely on market forces as much as possible to achieve important objectives of Canadian telecom policy, we also recommended that where the market does not achieve these objectives, the government and regulators should utilize smarter and more targeted policy and regulatory initiatives to do so.

There are a number of areas in which we thought such initiatives were necessary. I'll just list them very quickly.

First, we recommended that the CRTC be clearly empowered to order removal of some of the remaining barriers to entry by new telecom competitors--barriers including the existing restrictions on access to telephone and electrical poles, towers, rooftops, in-building wiring, and public property--so that existing and new competitors can compete more effectively.

Second, we recommended the use of radio-spectrum policies to ensure that adequate spectrum is available to new and existing companies, in order to provide advanced and competitive telecom services to Canadians in all areas of Canada.

Next, to ensure that vulnerable consumers are protected in the more competitive and less regulated telecom markets of the future, we recommended a number of initiatives.

The first is a specific legislated duty on incumbent telephone companies to continue to provide basic telephone service and to prevent abandonment of customers.

Second, we recommended the establishment of a new form of ombudsperson's office, called the telecom consumer agency, to resolve complaints from individual and small business retail customers against all telecom service providers, not just the currently regulated ones. Based on well-accepted models in the U.K., Australia, and elsewhere, we recommended that this agency run as a self-funding, independent, industry-established agency subject to guidelines set by the CRTC.

Finally, in the consumer area we recommended a regulatory power to confirm the right of Canadian consumers to access publicly available Internet applications and content by means of all public telecom networks that provide access to the Internet.

Consistent with this same approach, we believe the marketplace will continue to provide Canadians with one of the highest levels of broadband connectivity in the world. But our study suggested that for a small number of communities, often first nations communities and remote areas, it was unlikely the market would provide broadband connectivity. Therefore we recommended the U-CAN program--for “ubiquitous Canadian access network”--to ensure broadband access to these areas.

Finally, in recognition of Canada's lagging productivity performance and low level of adoption of information and communications technologies, the panel recommended a number of government policies to promote both, particularly among small and medium enterprises.

In summary, the panel saw its various recommendations as balanced and interrelated parts of a single new policy framework. This policy framework would result in deregulation in areas where market forces can best achieve Canada's long-term policy objectives while providing smart and targeted policies and regulation in areas where the market fails to do so.

We hope that the government and other stakeholders in the industry have the perseverance to complete what the TPR report has started--to make Canada a leader in terms of telecom policy--and by doing so maintain leadership in terms of the performance of our telecom sector for many years to come.

I remain available to provide as much information as possible to assist and fuel the thinking of committee members.

Thank you very much.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Thank you very much, Mr. Intven. We did allow you to go over your time, but I thought it was important to get your opening statement on record, as you're representing, obviously, the panel that we're talking about most at the beginning of this study.

We will start now with questions. Members have six minutes for questions and answers.

We will start with Mr. McTeague.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Dan McTeague Liberal Pickering—Scarborough East, ON

Mr. Chair, incredibly, mine may be very brief, and I'll yield the rest of the time to Mr. Brison.

Mr. Intven, thank you very much for being here.

This is, of course, one of the main reasons we were concerned and as an opposition felt that the decision of the government did not take into consideration all of the recommendations we believe ought to have been made if we are going to take, as you've suggested, a single approach towards reforming telecommunications policy.

I'm interested in your analysis or assessment of why recommendations 3-4, 3-5, and 3-15, dealing with the importance, almost the precondition, of a market power study taking place in the industry prior to deregulation.... I don't want to go into great quotes, but recommendation 3-15 deals with the issue of what would happen in a circumstance where you did not have substantial understanding of the market you were about to deregulate, as opposed to the mere competitive test, which is the presence test, that the government is proposing. What's your opinion on that?

3:50 p.m.

Former Member of Telecom Policy Review Panel, As an Individual

Hank Intven

It's a very difficult question. As you know, Mr. McTeague, the regulators in this country and in the U.S. and elsewhere have been struggling for over a decade to try to find the appropriate test for deregulating markets. In fact, it's been two decades since we started with the long distance industry.

I suppose it's one of these things that could be studied further; indeed, we recommended as a panel that there be some further study of it. Having said that, once the commission issued its decision on forbearance of local markets, I don't think we considered it inappropriate for the government to act to expedite the deregulation of the local markets.

The reality is, it's very hard to set a specific test. The commission's test, based primarily on a market share threshold, which was the commission's best effort to try to come up with a bright line test, had its flaws. Most economists would not support a straight market share test as a determinant of when a market should be deregulated. I think, given that literally for four or five years now regulators have been studying—or postponing, in some cases, the study of—forbearance of telecom markets, and given the relatively rapid pace at which the markets have become competitive—and they've become very competitive—I don't think it was inappropriate for the government to try to expedite the level of—

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Dan McTeague Liberal Pickering—Scarborough East, ON

Mr. Intven, I'm interested because this was written here. Obviously you want to take a whole approach to the recommendations that are there. You're suggesting that economists may not accept going along, nor would the commission, on the question of market share. I don't even think, frankly, we have an idea of what an identified market is.

But are you familiar with any economist who would support what I consider to be a flimsy market presence test? And why didn't you discuss it in the report?

3:50 p.m.

Former Member of Telecom Policy Review Panel, As an Individual

Hank Intven

The reason our panel did not deal with the issue of forbearance directly is that it was before the commission—sub judice, so to speak—while our panel was studying it, and so we did not make specific recommendations on forbearance.

Having said that, we did recommend, as you know, that there be as much reliance as possible on market forces rather than specific regulation. I think the move to deregulate local telecom markets, given the high level of competition in the markets, is a step in the right direction.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Scott Brison Liberal Kings—Hants, NS

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

You speak about there being a high level of competition in markets. In urban Canada, you're quite right. Ridings such as the one I represent in the Annapolis Valley of Nova Scotia aren't so fortunate. We've heard from a number of witnesses that in fact the decision of the government in overturning the CRTC decision and the changes in their approach to forbearance and win-back could in fact reduce the capacity for future competition to develop in some of the smaller markets.

In recommendation 8-1(b) you recommend immediately commencing “a program to ensure that affordable and reliable broadband services are available in all regions of Canada, including urban, rural and remote areas, by 2010 at the latest”. How would you see that being rolled out? There's been no discussion on it from the government, but how would you see it being implemented?

3:55 p.m.

Former Member of Telecom Policy Review Panel, As an Individual

Hank Intven

Mr. Brison, there are a couple of aspects to your question. The first one deals with competition in smaller markets. I take your point entirely. The competition will not roll out as fast in smaller markets as it does in the major ones. That is the nature of—

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Scott Brison Liberal Kings—Hants, NS

Would the change to forbearance and win-back not hinder the capacity of smaller players to compete in those markets?

3:55 p.m.

Former Member of Telecom Policy Review Panel, As an Individual

Hank Intven

I'm not convinced that's the case. It probably takes a number of policy and regulatory initiatives or a supportive framework to ensure competition there.

In your riding, where my daughter is fortunate enough to be a constituent, being at Acadia University right now, EastLink is quite a formidable competitor in some parts of that market. EastLink has proven itself to be a very strong and capable pioneer competitor.

If you looked at what happened historically in the roll-out of not only competition but telecom technologies generally, they naturally tended to start in the bigger markets, because that's where the bigger returns were. But they do get out there, and this is the case with broadband technologies.

On the panel, we had high hopes that new wireless technologies, particularly WiMAX, but also the pre-WiMAX services, such as the Inukshuk service, could provide competitive alternatives to existing services.

What we'll see happen will be intense competition from two or three independent sources in the major markets. In the smaller markets, we'll see a number of others. As you probably know, Barrett Explorer, using a combination of Ka-broadband satellite and fixed-terrestrial wireless, is starting to provide competition.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Sorry, we're well past a minute and a half over. You can start off the second round, Mr. Brison.

We'll go now to Monsieur Crête.

3:55 p.m.

Bloc

Paul Crête Bloc Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for your presentation. The report as a whole provides a thoroughly in-depth analysis. Did you have fun determining how many amendments you want to make to the act in your recommendations? I started counting those you're proposing to the Telecommunications Act, the Department of Industry Act and other acts.

How many major amendments to the Telecommunications Act do you think that will require? My question doesn't just concern the number, but also the proposed reform. What will happen if the amendments to those acts are not put in place and we only have the minister's current directions?

3:55 p.m.

Former Member of Telecom Policy Review Panel, As an Individual

Hank Intven

We did not. At one point when we were more ambitious in the early stages of our work, we contemplated drafting a model bill with all of the specific changes. But frankly we thought it was more important to get the basic recommendations out into the public debate.

So we have not done what you asked, Monsieur Crête, and actually itemize the specific number of changes.

4 p.m.

Bloc

Paul Crête Bloc Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC

Perhaps we misunderstood each other.

It's very clear that you've done a proper job. However, a number of recommendations in the report start with the words: “That section 7 of the Telecommunications Act be replaced by the following:...”.

The amendments you are suggesting require an overall balance. If I understand correctly, if we remove pieces of the puzzle and don't put the entire reform in place, the structure could collapse.

Do you agree?

4 p.m.

Former Member of Telecom Policy Review Panel, As an Individual

Hank Intven

I don't think our panel felt that despite our best efforts, it would be likely or possible for all 127 of our recommendations to be enacted precisely as specified. We had a sense that we had a comprehensive package requiring a general overhaul of the legislation. But if the government and Parliament were to get it mostly right and move mostly in that direction, this would suffice. I don't think it would fail because of one, two, or three.

4 p.m.

Bloc

Paul Crête Bloc Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC

Let's simply consider a few examples.

You're suggesting creating a telecommunications competition tribunal. In recommendation 9.1, you suggest amending the mandate of the Minister of Industry with regard to his research and policy development capability. Lastly, you propose that a user rights social protection agency be created.

Do you think these measures are essential to the reform? In your view, are there any others that are essential and without which the operation might not succeed?

4 p.m.

Former Member of Telecom Policy Review Panel, As an Individual

Hank Intven

I think you have listed the major institutional reforms. We went back to first principles. And I believe that the proper way for government to organize itself in the telecom sector—and, I might add, the way it's done in most OECD countries—is that the government itself should have strong policy research and policy-making capabilities; it should go to Parliament in order to propose and have Parliament ultimately enact legislation to set the general framework for it, and then it should have a number of independent professional regulators to administer those policies set by Parliament and by the government.

The three that you've enunciated—the telecommunications consumer agency, the telecommunications competition tribunal, and then a strengthened CRTC—would be the mechanisms that we think would do it properly in this country. It's very similar to the way it's done in most other OECD countries.

4 p.m.

Bloc

Paul Crête Bloc Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC

In your view, can the amendments announced by the minister thus far be put in place without introducing the other system safeguards? For example, the direction on local telephony isn't in effect because the minister is waiting for our comments. Could it go into effect without there being any other amendments to ensure a balanced system?

4 p.m.

Former Member of Telecom Policy Review Panel, As an Individual

Hank Intven

Yes, I think so.

In our report, as you will recall, Monsieur Crête, we recommended that the government move in two stages. We suggested that there was an urgency and a need to move, to start to rely more on market forces very quickly.

We would not criticize what the government has done to date. We in fact recommended that in phase one the government implement a policy direction very much along the lines of what they ultimately did, because we knew legislation takes time. The policy-making process and the parliamentary process will take more time.

I think it's completely consistent with our report for the government to have moved quickly on a few things that it can, and we would now encourage them to not stop there but to go ahead and implement a broader, more permanent framework for reform.

4 p.m.

Bloc

Paul Crête Bloc Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC

Recommendation 6.1 states, and I quote:

That the Telecommunications Act be amended to clearly require incumbent telephone companies to provide basic telephone service in regions where they have network infrastructure. That CRTC approval be required before abandoning the basic telephone service in any region where the service supplier is the incumbent telephone company.

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Okay, this will be the last question.

4:05 p.m.

Bloc

Paul Crête Bloc Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC

Can a decision on local telephony be made without this amendment, which is something of a safeguard?

4:05 p.m.

Former Member of Telecom Policy Review Panel, As an Individual

Hank Intven

I think the answer is yes. In actual fact, this kind of rule that a telephone company cannot abandon service is already in place for Bell Canada under its special legislation and it's enforced indirectly by the CRTC. We just thought it was important to enshrine it in legislation.

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Thank you.

We'll go now to Mr. Carrie, for six minutes.