Industry Committee on March 6th, 2008

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Yes, final question.

[Dr. Arthur Carty]

MacDonald Dettwiler is a space company primarily, and now a very valuable one because it's a knowledge-based company. It would be sad to lose it, but there is a marketplace that has to play a role here, so I wouldn't say that I would be all for interfering in every takeover that ever came around in Canada. That wouldn't be good either. This issue has to be approached very carefully, with wisdom and foresight.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Thank you, Ms. Nash.

We'll go to Mr. Simard, please.

[Raymond Simard, Liberal, Saint Boniface, MB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for being here, Dr. Carty and Monsieur Dufour.

On January 30 in the House of Commons, Minister Prentice said that Dr. Carty is a respected Canadian “whom I hold in very high regard”. I think we should take him at his word for that.

Dr. Carty, I'll come back to the sale of MDA, but I'm trying to find out what ministers would consult you on. What kinds of issues? I notice in your biography that you're also on the board of the Canadian Space Agency. Is that correct?

[Dr. Arthur Carty]

I was, in fact.

[Raymond Simard, Liberal, Saint Boniface, MB]

You were. It would seem to me that you would be one of the first people I would want to consult in terms of whether or not we should let this deal go through. Is that the kind of thing that Minister Prentice would consult you on? Has he consulted you on it?

Can you tell us very, very briefly what you think? I know you just touched on it, but do you think this is a good deal for Canada or not?

[Dr. Arthur Carty]

If Minister Prentice wanted my view, I'd try to give it, but I wouldn't claim to be an expert in this area. I have a view from the scientific perspective, but I am not a businessman, so I'm not sure that I'd be the best person to consult on that particular issue. If I were asked, what I would do is pull together a group of experts who were capable of putting together an analysis and assessment of the Canadian Space Agency's program, or the MacDonald Dettwiler situation.

I would emphasize that a national science advisor or chief scientist can't be an expert in everything. I did say that. Therefore, you have to depend on the community to do that. Minister Prentice may feel there are other parts of the community that are capable of giving that advice.

[Raymond Simard, Liberal, Saint Boniface, MB]

What did prime ministers do prior to this office being created? Who did they consult? Was there anybody they could go to?

[Dr. Arthur Carty]

I'd just say that it was the strong feeling that because there wasn't an office it had to come into being, because they were missing something. Of course, science advisors from other countries have been in Canada and provided advice too, and at least two of them have recommended to the government that there be a national science advisor.

[Raymond Simard, Liberal, Saint Boniface, MB]

You seem to know the other science advisors from other countries on a first-name basis, so I'm assuming it's a very close-knit community.

I'm just wondering about the possible damage this has done to our country. We all know the importance of science and technology in Canada's future, and every country's future. It would seem to me that these people here.... When they're responding to you, are they saying this is ridiculous, that Canada should not be getting rid of its science advisor at a time when, as a matter of fact, it is probably one of the most important things we should have?

[Dr. Arthur Carty]

I have to say that a number of those people have expressed surprise and disbelief, yes.

[Raymond Simard, Liberal, Saint Boniface, MB]

Organizations like Genome Canada.... I believe that's Dr. Henry Friesen?

[Dr. Arthur Carty]

No, Henry Friesen is no longer the chairman of the board. It's now Cal Stiller from the University of Western Ontario, and he's a long-standing medical scientist and entrepreneur. The president is Martin Godbout.

[Raymond Simard, Liberal, Saint Boniface, MB]

It's Martin Godbout.

So my question is, do you work with an organization like Genome Canada or CIHR, with the heads of these organizations, on a consistent basis in terms of sharing information, or not necessarily?

[Dr. Arthur Carty]

No, of course I know all of these people on first-name terms, but I go further than that. During the first part of my time as the national science advisor, I created a committee of presidents of councils and agencies--research agencies. That would include NSERC, CIHR, the Space Agency, NRC, SSHRC, CFI, and Genome Canada. We met regularly to discuss issues and take on projects. I thought that was a very effective way of getting people, first of all, to share information that they hadn't shared before. Bringing them together, convening this, was by itself a very positive thing.

[Raymond Simard, Liberal, Saint Boniface, MB]

I have thirty seconds and I'd like to get one last question in.

You mentioned earlier on that Foreign Affairs used your office extensively. Are there other departments that would consult with you on a regular basis--for instance, Agriculture, or anybody else?

[Dr. Arthur Carty]

Yes. I have lots of things I could tell you, if you want.

[Raymond Simard, Liberal, Saint Boniface, MB]

Could you name a few departments that did work with you?

[Dr. Arthur Carty]

Well, for example, Natural Resources Canada. I and one of my staff, Kevin Fitzgibbons, spent a fair bit of time appearing with NRCan to talk about the government's positioning within Canada's natural resources and sciences innovation system.

I'll just quote from this letter I received. It reads: “I would like you to know that your contributions and recommendations are one of the cornerstones upon which our department will chart its future directions. ”

There you go. So we've worked with Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada, Environment Canada--

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Simard.

We'll go to Mr. Van Kesteren, please.

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON]

Thank you for coming, sir. I've read your resumé. It's very impressive. I want to let you know that I have the highest regard for your credentials.

Why did you leave the position as an eminent scientist and take on a job as national science advisor when you knew, and it was obvious, that the office was underfunded?

[Dr. Arthur Carty]

Well, that's a good question.

First of all, I'd say the scientific community really welcomed the creation of this position. They were literally convinced this was the right thing to do. We hadn't had a science advisor in many years in Canada. This was in fact the first national science advisor, and the community was very much behind this. And of course, it was a prestigious position, reporting as it did to the Prime Minister. I think that anybody in my position--most high-profile scientists around the country--would have jumped at the opportunity to do this. So I didn't hesitate.

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON]

You see, here's the problem. We talked about this at the last meeting too. We're in a position as a government where we spend millions and then even billions of dollars on projects that for the most part most people haven't got a clue about. I'm talking about science and technology. We just trust those who are in command. As government, we have to take charge of the public purse, so we have to look at these things.

I'll just give you an example, and I don't know if you want to comment on this. But to the average layman.... On page 7 of your presentation, you say the Council of Canadian Academies, as it is now called, is operating with a $30 million endowment. We're wondering about what kind of value we are getting for our buck. It's great to do this stuff and it's great to have these.

Sir, I have to just go back to this. Again, the average Canadian is going to judge--because he has absolutely no idea of what you're involved with and the work that you're doing--the value for the money on things like Mr. Stanton was talking about. I looked at this too. I have to tell you, frankly, I'm shocked at some of these expenses.

I want you to comment on that. I know Mr. Stanton was criticized for bringing that up, but I just feel that's something that has to be--

[Scott Brison, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

Mr. Chair, on the same point of order, Mr. Stanton was referring to expenses when Dr. Carty was head of the NRC during a ten-year period.

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON]

Is this a point of order, Mr. Chair, or is this an interruption?