Evidence of meeting #35 for Industry, Science and Technology in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was universities.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Robert Best  Vice-President, National Affairs Branch, Association of Universities and Colleges of Canada
Eliot Phillipson  President and Chief Executive Officer, Canada Foundation for Innovation
Martin Godbout  President and Chief Executive Officer, Genome Canada
Norm Hüner  Scientific Director, Biotron
Manon Harvey  Vice-President, Finance and Corporate Services, Canada Foundation for Innovation
Michelle Gauthier  Director of research, Policy and Analysis, Association of Universities and Colleges of Canada

Noon

President and Chief Executive Officer, Canada Foundation for Innovation

Dr. Eliot Phillipson

That's a very important question. The global landscape is changing in the sense that there's a bit of irony. Research has become much more collaborative between jurisdictions, between countries, and at the same time much more competitive. The results of research are communicated now with the speed of light. And countries, particularly the developing countries—China, India, Brazil, Russia—that in previous years were not strong competitors with western countries in terms of science and technology are very rapidly becoming competitors.

That's one of the reasons—referring back to the question about PhDs—that Canada used to be a destination of choice for foreign PhDs to pursue their careers, if they were looking for a country into which to immigrate. They can now return to their countries of origin and have very successful careers. So our dependence, for example, on foreign-trained PhDs, which we've had in the past, will no longer serve us well in the future.

So the landscape has become much more competitive. Canada has done extremely well in the past decade for many reasons, but the driving reason was the tremendous investment by the Government of Canada through all the various mechanisms you had appearing before you. The implication is, though, that it's not one-time only. In other words, you can't say, well, we took care of research, so now let's move on to other things. It's an ongoing requirement. It's much like education. You don't educate one group of children and then move on to something else. So if Canada is to maintain its position in the science and technology world, we will have to sustain the type and level of investments we have been making in the past number of years. That doesn't mean it goes up continuously, but it has to be sustained at a level that will sustain our enterprise.

12:05 p.m.

Conservative

Bruce Stanton Conservative Simcoe North, ON

That actually picks up on a similar theme to the one Mr. Hüner mentioned in his remarks as well.

I wonder if I could go to you now, Mr. Hüner. One of the things you mentioned in your comments was the difference between targeted investment and investment for discovery. Could you expand on that notion just a little bit more and comment on whether we have the right balance at the moment? What do those two terms mean?

12:05 p.m.

Scientific Director, Biotron

Dr. Norm Hüner

Yes, as I mentioned to you earlier, to find that right balance, it depends on the area. For example, in the area of medicine—molecular biology, genetics, and so on—there's a tremendous potential for targeted research. There are other areas that are just as important that don't appear to have the potential for commercialization immediately, but if you're not investing in these areas now, what will happen 10 to 15 years from now?

If I can take a personal example, we've developed a sunscreen cream based on research done on photosynthesis. It has nothing to do with medicine. We've developed a sunscreen that has higher efficacy to protect against UV light than anything that's on the market today, simply because of evolution. Photosynthetic organisms have to deal with light all the time, and they've evolved a mechanism to do it. All we've done is exploit that. If you weren't doing research into the environment, you wouldn't have discovered it.

12:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Dan McTeague

Mr. Stanton, you have another minute, if you wish.

12:05 p.m.

Conservative

Bruce Stanton Conservative Simcoe North, ON

Excellent. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

That was a great answer and a great example, by the way.

Finally, I'm picking up on the fact that we are representatives of the people here.There has been some talk about how we make sure these investments can come back to Canadians in the form of a more prosperous economy and how that translates to better wealth opportunities for individual Canadians. Connect the dots for me, in layman's terms, on how these important investments in science can in fact paint a better picture for Canadians in the years ahead.

Perhaps Mr. Best and whoever else I haven't heard from yet could answer.

12:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Dan McTeague

Mr. Best, then Mr. Phillipson, and I think that will have to be it.

12:05 p.m.

Vice-President, National Affairs Branch, Association of Universities and Colleges of Canada

Robert Best

Thank you.

If I may, I'll ask my colleague Dr. Gauthier to speak. She is working on our report, precisely on this issue of demonstrating momentum and how we demonstrate the benefits Canada will ultimately realize as a result of investments in research.

Madame Gauthier.

12:05 p.m.

Director of research, Policy and Analysis, Association of Universities and Colleges of Canada

Michelle Gauthier

I would say there are three key benefits that come back to Canadians. The first is in terms of the people who are educated and who become your adaptable, flexible workforce. We have and will show in the momentum report a number of statistics about what it means to have more university-educated graduates who have been trained or educated in a research-enriched environment and what that gives you in terms of your workforce and your contributions to society across all sectors when they come through.

The second is in terms of the knowledge generated for the country. We represent 0.5% of the global population. We're punching above our weight in that we generate over 4.5% of the global knowledge. What does that mean in terms of helping and in terms of breakthroughs across the country? We'll demonstrate a number of those key breakthroughs in cutting-edge areas as well as contributions across what I'd call the strategic reserve. A response to your earlier question about the balance between strategic priorities and strategic reserve is that after 9/11, we suddenly had a very big need for people who understood world religions, who understood and could speak a number of different languages that were key to resolving issues around terrorism. We didn't know the day before 9/11 that we would need them. But if we hadn't maintained that strategic reserve, we wouldn't have been able to call on them the day after.

The third type of contribution we make is in terms of the application of that knowledge generated through the people who embody it. That's in terms of how universities and research fuel innovation. I think we need a broader concept of what that is, that it's innovations in products, services, and processes, but it's also innovations in terms of behaviours and policies. So it cuts across the full scope of research. We'll be providing specific examples from institutions in the report, and I'd be happy to share some of them with you afterwards.

12:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Dan McTeague

Thank you, Ms. Gauthier.

We'll have to go very quickly, Mr. Phillipson. We're way over time.

12:10 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Canada Foundation for Innovation

Dr. Eliot Phillipson

I would concur with what Michelle Gauthier just said. To add to it in terms of outcome and long-term benefits, which I think was the point you were getting at, there are the economic benefits as a result of commercialization. I'll come back to that one in a moment.

It is important to keep in mind, though, that the benefits of research, even the economic benefits, in addition to enhancing our social foundations, may not be because of commercializable products. For example, in the health field, reductions in health care delivery as a result of better processes can exact enormous savings to the health care system even though it's not as a result of any commercializable product. Similarly, and in the health field in particular, quality of life is an important consideration in the vast majority of clinical cases. Improving the quality of life of a patient is not something that can be measured in dollars and cents.

Let me come back now to the—

12:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Dan McTeague

Mr. Phillipson, I'm going to have to stop you there. You can get that in on the second round.

I will now turn to Monsieur Vincent s'il vous plaît.

12:10 p.m.

Bloc

Robert Vincent Bloc Shefford, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Let us carry on in the same vein. I found it interesting when Mrs. Gauthier talked about the educated population, the application of knowledge and so on.

What percentage of the population does this benefit?

My second question goes to Dr. Phillipson. I understand that you were not talking about economic benefits, but I feel that Canadians investing so much money in your various spheres of operation expect some kind of economic performance. If it is only to train university people, they will want to know whether the investment is a good one that is going to the right place.

I hope you can give me some answers.

I will come back to you, Dr. Godbout. Do not worry. I will not forget you.

12:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Dan McTeague

Do you want to start with Mrs. Gauthier?

12:10 p.m.

Bloc

Robert Vincent Bloc Shefford, QC

Yes, Mrs. Gauthier and then Dr. Phillipson.

12:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Dan McTeague

Who will be followed by Dr. Godbout.

12:10 p.m.

Director of research, Policy and Analysis, Association of Universities and Colleges of Canada

Michelle Gauthier

Fernand Martin, a researcher at the Université de Montréal, has done a study that he is about to publish. The study shows that the impact of the university contribution to the education of highly qualified people, together with their research activities, adds up to more than $50 billion over the last 20 years. This is the contribution to society in general terms. This macroeconomic indicator could well mean that 20% of the population has been educated at university in a research environment. Does that provide anything for the other 80%?

In fact, we can see that this 20% is generating much more than their share through their taxes that pay for services for all other sectors of our society, while they require less than 8% of the payments made by provincial and federal governments to support the services they need. So, in return, they contribute much more than the person whose lifetime salary is a million dollars more. It goes beyond the individual to society as a whole.

12:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Dan McTeague

Dr. Phillipson.

12:10 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Canada Foundation for Innovation

Dr. Eliot Phillipson

If you're asking for specific figures, which is a very legitimate question, these are hard to come by, but there have been studies and there are ongoing studies of the return on investment in research in a number of countries. In general, overall, the return is something in the order of seven to one. In other words, for every dollar invested in the research enterprise, ultimately there's a benefit, a return on investment in the order of seven dollars.

The difficulty is that, as Dr. Godbout mentioned, it's not an immediate outcome. It's not an assembly line where research goes in at one end and economic benefit comes out a short time later. Depending on the field, it can be 10 to 15 years, sometimes even longer, and it's not linear. We can connect the dots in retrospect, but it's very difficult to predict them going forward. Nevertheless, history has demonstrated that the dots indeed can be connected and that there is an economic return.

In addition to that, if I can take another 30 seconds, those of us who are in the research-funding organizations are not simply relying on history or faith that this will happen. We are trying to actually document it, and at CFI, for example, we are completing a study of spin-off companies at universities whose creation depended, to a considerable extent, on the infrastructure provided by CFI.

Now, keep in mind that the bulk of these investments have been made only during the past five or six years. There are already 94 spin-off companies that meet that description, and they have attracted capital investment through venture capital and IPOs of $1.1 billion. So this is just the early stages. In other words, we're talking about the first five, six, or seven years of CFI investments that have led to that sort of economic benefit. I anticipate, as we continue these studies and the further out we go, that we will see a much larger impact.

12:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Dan McTeague

You have a little time left, Mr. Vincent.

12:15 p.m.

Bloc

Robert Vincent Bloc Shefford, QC

You say that you had an impact worth a billion dollars. But, since 1997, you have spent $3.75 billion. Perhaps one side of the equation does not equal the other.

Let us go back to Genome Canada and the new Biotron. I heard both your presentations, and I think that your research overlaps. Genome Canada talks about agriculture, research, large-scale agricultural projects, proteins. You talk about the environment too. You have also funded environmental projects. Biotron talks about climate change, earth sciences, plants.

Could these areas of research overlap? If not, are they similar? I am not very familiar with the areas. From your presentations, they sound similar. Are they completely different?

12:15 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Genome Canada

Dr. Martin Godbout

It takes a number of different tradespeople to build a house. We have people in two completely different trades. We deal with genes, with a genomic approach, the plans, the architecture. They have a more biological approach, more applied research. The two are complementary. The same applies to our partners; we make sure that things fit together, but we have two different groups of tradespeople building the same house.

12:15 p.m.

Bloc

Robert Vincent Bloc Shefford, QC

At the same time...

12:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Dan McTeague

This will be your last question, Mr. Vincent.

12:15 p.m.

Bloc

Robert Vincent Bloc Shefford, QC

Could the study not have been conducted in your facilities? I know that the Canadian Foundation for Innovation, the CFI, paid 40% of the Biotron project. It invested almost half the money needed to build another facility.

12:15 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Genome Canada

Dr. Martin Godbout

Let me assure you that there is no duplication of costs.