Evidence of meeting #36 for Industry, Science and Technology in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was nrc.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Pierre Coulombe  President, National Research Council Canada
Gary Corbett  Vice-President, Professional Institute of the Public Service of Canada
Denise Doherty-Delorme  Section Head of Research, Professional Institute of the Public Service of Canada
Chris Roberts  Research Officer, Professional Institute of the Public Service of Canada

11 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Members and witnesses, let's find our seats, please.

This is the 26th meeting of the Standing Committee on Industry, Science and Technology. We are here today continuing our study and review of science and technology in Canada.

We have four witnesses before us today from two organizations.

First, from the National Research Council of Canada, we have the president, Pierre Coulombe. Welcome.

We have three representatives from the Professional Institute of the Public Service of Canada, the vice-president, Mr. Gary Corbett; the section head of research, Denise Doherty-Delorme; and the research officer, Mr. Chris Roberts.

We generally allow up to five minutes for an opening statement, but because we have two groups I'll be a little lax on that. We'll start with the NRC, then we'll go to the Professional Institute of the Public Service of Canada.

Mr. Coulombe, you may begin at any time.

11 a.m.

Pierre Coulombe President, National Research Council Canada

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Good day. Thank you for inviting me to speak to you today on behalf of the National Research Council Canada (NRC).

While I will be pleased to contribute to the discussion of any relevant issues, there is one particular point I would like to make. The National Research Council, or NRC, is exceptionally well positioned to support the priorities and vision of the federal science and technology strategy, modernizing science and technology to Canada's advantage.

In developing our own plan a few years ago, entitled Science at Work for Canada, we went through a series of in-depth studies and consultations and focused our programs on what are clear government priorities in health and wellness, sustainable energy, the environment, as well as a series of key sectors such as the area of space, advanced material, and information and communication technologies. In pursuing these goals, NRC is building upon a long tradition.

Since 1916, the NRC has played a leading role in fulfilling the Government of Canada's commitments in the field of science and technology. Over the years, the NRC has continued to evolve to meet the ever-changing needs of Canadians and of the country's economy. This ability to adapt and renew itself is one of the NRC's most remarkable qualities.

Not only does the NRC conduct innovative research and development, it also transfers the knowledge acquired to cutting-edge technology firms for marketing purposes. Some of the NRC's most noteworthy achievements include ecoplastics, 3D laser scanners, advanced characterization technologies, the artificial pacemaker and the meningitis C vaccine.

In performing its day-to-day activities, NRC is helping to determine Canada's social and economic future by building partnerships that increase national productivity and by creating a competitive advantage for Canada through science and technology. NRC is thus enhancing Canada's entrepreneurial advantage by concentrating some of its unique strengths and competencies in key industrial sectors, such as agriculture, automotive, construction, and biopharmaceuticals.

NRC supports Canada's knowledge advantage by developing a series of national research programs that leverage multidisciplinary competencies and mobilize collective strengths, creating a critical mass in research capacity that will lead to substantial advances in knowledge, development, and application, in Canada's national interest.

Our first national program under our plan is co-led by NRC and Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada. Its focus is on bioproducts and will help to address Canadian priorities, such as the environment, sustainable energy, and rural revitalization, through products that can marry the challenges of effective utilization of forest and agricultural biomass with expertise in fields as diverse as polymer science and industrial systems to increase the competiveness of sectors that include automotive and aerospace.

The second national program will focus on fuel cells and hydrogen technologies. It will build upon NRC, NRCan, and NSERC activities and will help bring government and industry researchers together to meet the critical demand for research and development in this field.

The NRC is also involved in multi-partner collaborative efforts, such as the nanotechnology research initiative announced at the end of April. These collaborative efforts are one concrete way for the federal government to help Canada make a name for itself as one of the world's most innovative nations.

Working with the Natural Sciences and Engineering Research Council of Canada (NSERC) and the Business Development Bank (BDC), the NRC collaborates with Canadian researchers on the development of state-of-the-art nanotechnology applications. In the process, it contributes to the attainment of the goals set out in the federal science and technology strategy.

Finally, NRC is supporting Canada's people advantage by attracting and retaining the highly skilled people Canada needs to thrive in the global economy.

So as you can see, NRC's five-year strategic plan, which will lead us to 2011, is perfectly aligned with the federal science and technology strategy. We focus on the same priorities. We strongly support Canada's three distinct S and T advantages, and we generate technological solutions for industry that improve the quality of life of Canadians and others around the world. Therefore, by continuing to implement our programs, initiatives, and collaborative research projects, we hope to maintain our leadership position in helping the Government of Canada meet its science and technology commitments.

Merci.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Thank you very much, Mr. Coulombe.

Mr. Corbett, will you be presenting on behalf of the Professional Institute of the Public Service of Canada?

Please go ahead.

11:05 a.m.

Gary Corbett Vice-President, Professional Institute of the Public Service of Canada

Thank you, Mr. Chair and members of committee.

The Professional Institute welcomes the opportunity to appear before this committee. PIPSC represents 55,000 scientists, engineers, and professionals across Canada's public sector, the vast majority of whom are employed in the federal public service, including in the NRC, Natural Resources Canada, Environment Canada, science-based departments, regulatory agencies, and field research stations. They often work in close collaboration with their academic and private sector counterparts.

Their research, which is associated with the welfare and livelihood of Canadians, is of concern to Canadians. It's on the minds of Canadians--the quality of the air they breathe, the food they eat, the water they drink, and the safety of consumer products. The members and scientists of the Professional Institute work in this area every day for the public good of Canadians.

The institute applauds the decision of this committee to undertake this study and believes that a thorough review is urgently needed. Despite the unique importance of the public sector to the health and well-being of Canadians, science performed in the federal public service has increasingly been neglected in the nation's science and technology decision-making.

In the last decade, the scientific effort in Canada has shifted dramatically away from in-house government-performed scientific research to university-based research--figure 1 in your brief. In real terms, the federal gross domestic expenditure on research and development--GERD--on the federally performed research in natural science and engineering, peaked in the 1980s and has been flat ever since. At the same time, Canada has failed to improve its position in international R and D rankings. In 1995, Canada ranked tenth in the OECD in GERD as a percentage of GDP, and by 2005 it had slipped to eleventh place.

The decline comes precisely at a moment when the Canadian public relies more than ever on the vitality and unbiased authority of public science. Canadians face profound challenges in the decades to come in adapting to global warming. Canadians expect that their government will maintain the scientific capacity to understand, anticipate, and respond to challenges facing this country, including the capacity to undertake large-scale and long-term research to support scientific monitoring, prediction, and reporting. Public science is essential to this effort. Universities and the private sector are not mandated or equipped to provide sustained and secure support for this research.

Big science projects requiring large-scale investments and long-term commitments in particular need government science leadership and in-house capacity to succeed. Yet after years of in-house program cuts, scientific investigation, monitoring, and data gathering are in crisis. As scientists conveyed to the environment minister in a recent meeting, other governments are questioning Canada's science regionally and internationally. For example, steps taken to terminate the funding to the United Nations global environment monitoring system--GEMS, a world-renowned program housed in Burlington, Ontario, for 30 years, has been reduced. It raises doubts internationally about the Canadian government's commitment to scientific endeavour in the public interest. The institute's federal scientists report that the scientific capacity of the government has been and is eroding.

Given their role in protecting Canadians and their vocation in service to Canadians, scientists are understandably frustrated by their inability to serve that purpose. The quality of their work suffers from their taking on a similar or heavier workload with fewer resources. When constantly changing priorities and bureaucratic rules are thrown into the mix, an even higher number have a diminished ability to serve the public effectively.

Members tell the institute constantly of their frustrations in being unable to apply for research moneys and being deterred from collaborating with scientists in academia and the private sector. Some labs are relying on industry funding to keep the lights on.

Now members are confronted by a future of doing even more with less. The government has a full-blown staffing emergency, with over 40% turnover in many departments. Science-based departments like Fisheries and Oceans report attrition rates of 40% to 45% amongst scientific researchers in the next four years. Health Canada will need to fill 600 positions in 2008 alone.

We have some recommendations. First, public science needs to be revitalized. There is a vital need for leadership on science and technology policy. The government must act with urgency on its commitment to S and T in the public interest and reverse the decline that has been set following program review in the 1990s.

The government must restore and increase resources for scientific research in the federal government, including a strengthening of A-base funding and a reduced reliance on short-term sunset programs and term employees. It must halt the further erosion of public science stemming from the strategic review of SBDA programs and expenditures.

There must be greater support for the work of scientists and researchers in the federal public service. Canada's 21st century knowledge economy requires highly qualified personnel. But when it comes to knowledge workers, the federal government has a significant recruitment and retention problem on its hands. The accelerated rate of attrition is diminishing the federal scientific effort. The government must find ways to attract new scientists and researchers to perform highly qualified science in the public sector.

An immediate and important signal to leading researchers considering public service would be to recognize the professional autonomy of scientific researchers and safeguard the independence of scientific work. Stable funding is required. And they need unfettered access to collaborative research networks, conferences, and forums for exchange of scholarly ideas.

The government must listen to the scientific community. Scientists are eager to work with government and provide expert opinion on science-related policy. The science and technology strategy was conceived with little participation and input from the government's own national science adviser, Dr. Arthur Carty, let alone Canada's broad community of professional scientists.

Canada needs a national science adviser to bring science issues directly to the public agenda. The institute calls for the government to restore a stand-alone office of the national science adviser, with full-time staff reporting to the public and to Parliament.

In addition, as Dr. Carty pointed out, “For advice to be effective, there must be a receptor willing and able to use it.” Government must engage the scientific community as a whole, including the government's own scientists and the Professional Institute that represents them if it wishes to strengthen scientists' roles in the national S and T policy formulation and improve public science innovation capacity.

Finally, the government must align science and technology policy with economic policy. The government needs an economic policy that complements and reinforces science and technology policy. The institute is encouraged that the government has belatedly intervened in the proposed sale of the MacDonald Dettwiler Radarsat technology to an American firm, but it is struck by the government's apparent insensitivity to the vital importance of a nurturing economic and industrial environment in which to cultivate world leading science and technology. The government needs to mandate and invest in a national foresight program, with a network of S and T stakeholders who are capable of discerning long-term trends and informing decision-making.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Thank you for your presentation, Mr. Corbett.

We'll start with questions from members.

Mr. Brison, for six minutes, please.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Scott Brison Liberal Kings—Hants, NS

Thank you very much

And thank you for being with us today.

I'd like to start with Mr. Coulombe. You were listing the top priorities for NRC, and I was surprised that cleantech wasn't one of those priorities. As a country, we're a significant energy producer. We're a country with a very high carbon footprint. We're moving into a global carbon-constrained economy. As such, it's going to require new technology to go from traditional conventionals to clean conventionals--cleaner oil and gas, CO2, sequestration, as well as alternatives. You mentioned biofuels briefly and some research on the cellulosic side. But why is cleantech not at the centre of your focus in the coming years, particularly given the economic opportunities, or risk if we don't act to develop those technologies in Canada?

11:15 a.m.

President, National Research Council Canada

Pierre Coulombe

Thank you for your question.

Mr. Chairman, that's a very important question. The core areas of priority that we selected from our in-depth analysis obviously include the environment. It also includes sustainable energy. On the clean technologies, NRC is very much involved with fuel cells and hydrogen. As you know, we have an institute in Vancouver, and we just announced, with Minister Lunn, last week an additional investment of $14 million in support of developing the hydrogen and fuel cell side.

We are also involved in trying to develop technologies to support the tar sands development. That's one thing. But another major issue is that Natural Resources Canada, NRCan, very much has the mandate of developing R and D in support of energy, and we are partnering with them on that front.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Scott Brison Liberal Kings—Hants, NS

Do you coordinate or focus some of your work based on discussions with the venture capital community, for instance? Some of the biggest venture capital players are focusing on clean technology. Do you look at the kinds of investments they are making in looking to commercialize downstream activities?

11:15 a.m.

President, National Research Council Canada

Pierre Coulombe

We do that in two different ways. First is by trying to transfer clean technologies, which we are developing in our labs, to the private sector through licensing agreements. When that is not possible, we try to create new companies, spinoff activities, and basically engage quite significantly with the venture capital market in Canada.

We have examples of that going on right now. I cannot discuss them in detail, but we have clean technologies we are considering spinning off. We have already received the interest of venture capitalists. So what you will most likely see in the next few months is the creation of a new company designed specifically to commercialize clean technology.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Scott Brison Liberal Kings—Hants, NS

In August, the President of the Treasury Board created an independent panel of experts to provide advice on our report on transferring federal non-regulatory labs. It was headed by Dr. Arnold Naimark. It was supposed to report to Treasury Board by December 31. My understanding is that it has not yet reported back.

Did you meet with Dr. Naimark's panel?

11:20 a.m.

President, National Research Council Canada

Pierre Coulombe

Thank you for your question, Mr. Chairman.

Yes, we met with Mr. Naimark. We participated in all the round tables that took place across Canada. I think six cities were visited. So we participated with a group of various stakeholders that met on those occasions. But the Naimark report is still with the Treasury Board, so I don't really know the outcome.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Scott Brison Liberal Kings—Hants, NS

Some of the agricultural research centres being considered are extremely important to Canadian agriculture. For instance, the Kentville research station in Nova Scotia in the Annapolis Valley is critically important for providing that kind of public research. There is significant angst in the agricultural community about the uncertainty around that report. What is your feeling on the importance of decentralized agricultural research in public facilities across Canada?

11:20 a.m.

President, National Research Council Canada

Pierre Coulombe

Thank you again for your question.

You may appreciate that those stations do not report to NRC but rather to Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Scott Brison Liberal Kings—Hants, NS

But did you express an opinion to Dr. Naimark?

11:20 a.m.

President, National Research Council Canada

Pierre Coulombe

Well, we expressed an opinion to Dr. Naimark primarily about the role of the NRC in the Canadian S and T landscape. We did not express an opinion to Dr. Naimark about other departments or agencies having responsibility for scientific activity, because it was not part of our mandate.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Scott Brison Liberal Kings—Hants, NS

I can tell you, from the agricultural community's perspective, about the importance of decentralized research. Apples produced or researched in the Annapolis Valley are different from those in the Okanagan Valley, and with technology we can connect that research. You don't have to have everybody in one place in Ottawa conducting that research. I think that applies to fisheries and it applies more broadly. I'm hearing from industry stakeholders in a variety of industries that decentralized research, connected by technology, is the direction we ought to be pursuing.

11:20 a.m.

President, National Research Council Canada

Pierre Coulombe

Again, it is difficult for me to comment, because I'm not very well aware of how Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada is having these facilities spread out all across the country.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Mr. Corbett, do you want to comment on that?

11:20 a.m.

Vice-President, Professional Institute of the Public Service of Canada

Gary Corbett

Yes, I would like to comment on several of those things.

I appreciate Dr. Coulombe's answers with respect to NRC. But in the delivery of Canadian science, there are science-based departments and agencies that should all be connected, because they all work for the public trust.

With respect to the panel, I received a letter just the other day from the minister saying that this particular report was still in cabinet and that there was no decision on it yet. So that's as fresh as yesterday.

With respect to the comments by the honourable member Scott Brison, absolutely, those facilities are extremely important to Canadians. We find that they're underfunded and they can't perform the mandate they once did, including collaborative research with other agricultural facilities across the country, which we have visited most extensively. It's not only agriculture; it's Natural Resources Canada and Environment Canada. These areas need to be better funded.

There is a lot of angst. There is a lot of angst in the scientific community.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Brison.

I'll go to Monsieur Vincent.

11:20 a.m.

Bloc

Robert Vincent Bloc Shefford, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Coulombe, can you tell me what your annual operating budget is?

11:20 a.m.

President, National Research Council Canada

Pierre Coulombe

The NRC has a budget of approximately $850 million. Funds are divided into three major envelopes: envelope A which totals about $500 million; envelope B, which represents funding in the amount of $100 million which is renewed every five years; and the revenue envelope, which totals between $160 million and $180 million. The overall level of funding varies from year to year, depending, I would say, on the strength of the Canadian economy.

11:25 a.m.

Bloc

Robert Vincent Bloc Shefford, QC

In dollar terms, what does your partnership with the private sector or with other companies represent?

11:25 a.m.

President, National Research Council Canada

Pierre Coulombe

In terms of the revenue that the NRC generates through its research activities arising from contracts with the industry or other federal departments, the figure is somewhere between $160 million and $180 million, as I said earlier. Of this total amount, between $80 million and $90 million is derived from industry.

11:25 a.m.

Bloc

Robert Vincent Bloc Shefford, QC

There is a difference between revenues and money invested. One can do research, develop a product, generate a patent and sell a product to a company that can then turn around and make a profit of several million dollars. However, in terms of revenue generated, we're talking about $160 million to $180 million a year, based on a budget of $850 million.

Do you think the NRC is poised to develop a product that will be successful enough to help you generate a profit over the next few years?