Industry Committee on June 5th, 2008

[Scott Langen]

That's federally.

[Bruce Stanton, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

Okay. That's what I wanted to know.

You're certainly on the mark here in terms of the degree to which these kinds of operations and exhibits and facilities help engender young people to look at science.

I wonder if you could give us some statistics on what that looks like and what kinds of results. Do you have anything that shows that the exposure to these kinds of exhibits and organizations in fact drives higher numbers of graduates, for example, or greater enrolment in science and math? Is there anything like that that demonstrates those results?

[Scott Langen]

I think I did mention the one from CA Canada, where they had surveyed just under 500 university students, and 94% of them said that trips to science centres, museums, natural history museums, and general science experiences increased their interest in science and technology.

That's one of the more recent studies. I know Tracy can speak to a few.

The ASTC, which is the Association of Science-Technology Centers, based out of the United States, has a binder about this thick in terms of studies that have been done over the last 15 to 20 years.

[Tracy Ross]

Absolutely, Scott, that's correct, and I'll just add a couple more.

There was the one I just pointed to, conducted by the National Science Foundation, that indicated that those individuals in science careers had indicated that visits to science centres were one of the top experiences that motivated them to go into a science career.

So it's a bit of a retro thing, and as we've said, it's very complicated in trying to decide why people go into science. But that's one of the two pieces of evidence we have.

The other one I'll point to is that we have seen, in terms of performance testing and standards testing, more hands-on activity and more hands-on experiences increase people's performance in terms of standardized testing, and we have evidence to that effect as well. Of course, science centres epitomize the hands-on learning technique.

[Bruce Stanton, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

Am I out of time, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

You have about 30 seconds left. Mr. Langen did want to make a point again.

[Bruce Stanton, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

That's okay.

Mr. Langen, go ahead.

[Scott Langen]

There's also something more going on. After a workshop or a visit, do they understand more in terms of natural sciences and physics? What happens is that their mind is inspired. When we say someone is innovative, it means they are a problem solver; they're a critical thinker; they're a risk taker; and they're collaborative and creative. That is the type of experience we're trying to build within these youth, and it's that connection to future careers and opportunities that we think will help with the innovation infrastructure.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Thank you, Mr. Stanton.

We'll go to Ms. Nash, please.

[Peggy Nash, NDP, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

Thank you, and welcome to the witnesses. I regret that we get only six minutes to ask you questions. It goes very fast.

To the folks from the Canadian Association of Science Centres, I was struck when we were visiting the TRIUMF facility in Vancouver. There were these amazing young physicists who were so inspired by the work they're doing. It was really exciting to see them, and it made me regret that I was a literature student and not a science major, because they were so excited about the work they're doing. It seems to me that if we are going to engage Canadians in science, we need to engage them as youngsters.

We have a science centre in my city, Toronto. I haven't been there recently, but I remember for a long period of time that there weren't new exhibitions and new things there, so we kind of stopped going. And I was very sad to see our planetarium shut down, because I loved the planetarium.

Do you believe...? I guess I'm asking you a leading question, because I think it's obvious that if we engage kids when they are young, they will grow up to be adults who are engaged and interested in science. Even if science is not their career, they will care about science and what their country's role is in scientific developments.

[Tammy Adkin, Vice-President, Canadian Association of Science Centres]

I'm happy to answer that. I spend my days working with the very youngest of science centre visitors at our centre. We welcome visitors from infancy to 12 years old, and their families. It is never too early to start. In fact, by waiting until children get to the later grades of elementary school, it's almost too late to ignite that spark that encourages them and gives them the confidence to pursue interests, studies, and then ultimately perhaps careers in science.

So as far as hands-on experiences go, we know that the first five years of a child's life are vitally important in setting the framework for how they will respond to learning in future years. Giving them opportunities that show them that science is all around them, that it goes beyond a textbook in a school, really sets the foundation for innovation. Certainly the Ontario Science Centre and science centres across Canada have recognized the importance and are working to engage early learning. Also, by engaging early learners, you engage their families as well.

The Ontario Science Centre is hosting the 5th Science Centre World Congress in two weeks in Toronto. People from around the world will be coming to learn what they have done in terms of moving forward on that agenda.

[Peggy Nash, NDP, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

Thank you.

Dr. Barney, I was struck by the mention of the Danish technology board in your brief. Something else that strikes me is that in Toronto we have a wind turbine, and if that turbine breaks down, we have to send to Denmark for the parts.

I wonder if the engagement of citizens in Denmark isn't somehow related to their decision to become world leaders in renewable energy, specifically wind energy, and whether the citizens of Denmark played a role in helping Denmark come to that determination.

[Darin Barney]

Yes, I think that's a very valuable question. One of the assumptions that often comes when people hear people like me talk about increased citizen engagement in science and technology is a kind of fear that that's going to mean a kind of shutting down of scientific development, a sort of irrational constraint on technological development, because citizens are just a bit too skittish or something like that.

But that's far from the case, and in fact I think what has inspired examples like that of the Danish technology board is a kind of simultaneous commitment to the benefits of scientific and technological development, both in terms of economic growth and competitiveness, environmental sustainability and the like, and a very strong sense that that commitment needs to take place in the context of equally strong democratic commitments to making sure that good citizen judgment is brought to bear on technological and scientific development. Then we get the very best kinds of scientific and technological development we can get, and also, then, citizens' investment in that is a kind of authentic investment whereby they feel as though they're not just being sort of asked to sign on to a project that they've never really engaged with, but rather they feel as though their voice matters in the development of scientific and technological priorities, because they believe in them.

[Peggy Nash, NDP, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

Dr. Barney, you mentioned best practices of democratic engagement around science and technology involvement, from the EU primarily. Can you offer those to our committee for our consideration? Is some kind of policy document or a research paper established that you could share with us?

[Darin Barney]

Yes, it wouldn't be difficult for me to gather some of that information for you.

As I mentioned in one of my previous responses, democratic engagement is tough enough as it is, but when it comes to complex issues like science and technology, there are additional challenges. There are good ways to do democratic engagement and less effective ways. Yes, I think I can provide some pointers.

[Peggy Nash, NDP, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

Thanks very much.

My question, and perhaps we'll have to wait for the answer, is to the Science for Peace representatives. This committee was very involved around the Radarsat-MDA sale. I think there's a perfect example of technology designed for peace that could have been used for not-so-peaceful means. Part of the challenge now is for our government to invest in the space agency and therefore offer alternative work. We've missed the Mars Rover. It could have had a Canadian flag on it, but it didn't.

What would you recommend in terms of the future of the Canadian Space Agency?

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Mr. Dorn.

[Walter Dorn]

You're quite right, Radarsat-2 has an excellent ground moving-target indicator, which could be used to track trucks in Iraq or it could be used to help peacekeeping forces. It's an example of a technology that's competitive worldwide. It can make a big difference in the field and for the UN. We're just starting to explore that. I'm a consultant to the United Nations on the use of technology in the field.

Fifteen years ago we briefed the interdepartmental committee on space, before the Canadian Space Agency was created, to ask for it to have a mandate to be able to provide assistance to the United Nations in the reconnaissance field. This would be in addition to the kind of work the CSA is doing with DND, but it would also be a link to increase the capacity of Canada to funnel that kind of information.

We've had problems with MDA, which now has a systems contract at the UN for reconnaissance satellite information, but it hasn't worked out very well. Geographic information systems people in the UN have had complaints, so we want to see that improved.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Thank you for that brief question, Ms. Nash. You're learning from Mr. Brison. Is there a next question?

Mr. Brison, you have five minutes.

[Scott Brison, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Barney, I'm very intrigued by the notion of an increased level of citizen engagement on issues of science, particularly around young people. I think all political parties would agree it's tough to engage citizens between the ages of 18 and 30. Voter turnout rates within this group are lower every election. They also represent one of the most educated and informed generations in the history of the country. They are interested in issues, but not interested in politics, by and large, and see other ways to make a difference. I think it's a critical question, not just on science issues, but more broadly. If we engage them in discussions on science, we may be able to earn their support at the political level for investment in science. I think you're onto something.

Have you looked at what Don Tapscott and others have worked on in the whole wiki-based, open-platform technological approach where you're taking a vehicle and a community within which young people live--the web? We go to the web to do research sometimes, but we live in meetings. They live on the web and periodically go to meetings. Have you explored the notion and premise of wikinomics and others as a vehicle?

You talked quite a bit about institutions and an institutional approach to this. I think when we start talking about institutionalizing this, their eyes glaze over. I think there may be a more direct technologically based approach that even by the nature of how we do it would be innovative.

I'd like to get your feedback on that and whether some country or organization is doing a good job of harnessing technology as a vehicle to engage this vital generation in these vital debates.

[Darin Barney]

Yes, youth engagement in general is very important, certainly around science and technology issues.

One of the things I would say about youth engagement in particular is that one of the ways we need to engage youth at an early stage in science and technology is not only in the promotion of science and technology in order to stimulate them to possibly take up careers in those fields--that's very important--but we also need to start engaging them as citizens whose voices matter on important questions like science and technology. I think we need to start building critical literacies around science and technological issues when they are very young, so that when they move into positions where they are ready to be politically engaged, they have developed the habit of thinking critically about scientific and technological issues.

As you say, youth, perhaps more than people of our generation, live much more directly in a technologically saturated environment every day. They live in networked environments as if it were the air around them, so they're already very engaged, not with technology as a means of socializing, but they think very deeply about issues surrounding, for example, the development and regulation and governance of network technology. That bears on their everyday social practices in a direct way.

If we can identify scientific and technological issues that matter to their everyday lives and come up with processes where their voices matter on those questions, I think they will be engaged. And using new technologies they're already quite immersed in might be one road toward doing that.

I still think you need an institution to configure those exercises well, but I think--

[Scott Brison, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

Thank you.

Ms. Ross, do you have a comment?

[Tracy Ross]

Yes, absolutely. Thank you, Mr. Brison.

I am listening to this with great enthusiasm, and I am looking forward to working with Mr. Barney when this becomes established.

I would love to reiterate that science centres absolutely are engaged with the youth population, and my colleagues can attest to that and add to it.

I have a couple of examples to offer to you in terms of the citizen engagement that science centres are looking into: YouTube, Flickr, discussion boards online. Because we are always in search of our audiences, we are in search of those and those programs that happen.

We've had exhibitions lately that have crossed Canada, on climate change and Genomix, that are absolutely finding ways to engage those audiences.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Brison.

We'll go to Mr. Van Kesteren, please.

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you, witnesses, for coming.

I want to direct my question to you first, Mr. Barney. I asked this question on our tour across the country to one of the academics, or one of the presidents, who I think was a member of the University of British Columbia. I'm curious. In your opinion, have we struck the right balance between encouraging research, for our economy, for the benefit of scientific...? In other words, what we're trying to do as a government.... Obviously, this is our task. We're spending an awful lot of money, but have we struck the right balance between research for economic development and scientific investigation, pure science? Are we treading in areas that hinder you, do you feel, or is the government moving in the right direction?