Evidence of meeting #6 for Industry, Science and Technology in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was good.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Dale Orr  Managing Director, Canadian Macroeconomic Services, Global Insight Inc.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Let's have order, please.

Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen.

We will start meeting number 6 of the Standing Committee on Industry, Science and Technology. Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), we are undertaking a study of the impact of the appreciating value of the Canadian dollar on the Canadian economy. This is the first meeting we have on this issue.

We have with us today one witness, Mr. Dale Orr, the managing director of Canadian Macroeconomic Services for Global Insight Incorporated.

Mr. Orr, welcome back to the committee.

3:35 p.m.

Dr. Dale Orr Managing Director, Canadian Macroeconomic Services, Global Insight Inc.

Thank you.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

We're very glad to have you here.

You will have up to ten minutes for an opening statement, and then you will have questions from members from both sides.

Welcome. Please feel free to introduce yourself and to make comments about the impact of the Canadian dollar on the Canadian economy.

3:35 p.m.

Managing Director, Canadian Macroeconomic Services, Global Insight Inc.

Dr. Dale Orr

Well, thank you very much for inviting me back. It was about a year and a half ago that I was last here, but I think I've appeared before this committee, off and on, probably for the last decade. So thank you for the invitation.

I've provided a handout that updates some of the charts from May 2006. There are a couple of new charts as well on some recent data on the issue before us.

In my opening comments I'd like to focus on some of the policy challenges in particular, and if I have time I will make a couple of comments on the charts. If not, please feel free to ask whatever questions you wish on those.

First, I have a couple of comments on the nature of the challenges the Canadian dollar appreciation presents.

Something that sometimes escapes us is that by far the most important impacts of the appreciating Canadian dollar on the economy are the many ways in which this appreciation redistributes money and redistributes income among different groups of Canadians--different industrial sectors, different occupations, different income groups, and certainly different provinces of Canada.

After a challenging period of transition, it's very important to understand that the Canadian economy can operate and has operated at a good level of performance at a high dollar and at a low dollar. It's a redistribution issue, most importantly.

With a sharply higher value of the Canadian dollar, as we've seen since 2002, it's also important, I think, to understand that the industrial composition of the Canadian economy should be different. That's appropriate. When the dollar goes from 65¢ to par, it's appropriate that there be significant changes in the structure of the economy.

To be competitive going forward means that there simply should be, and there must be, and there will be, fewer people in the economy making their livings exporting to the U.S.

It's critical that the government fully recognize the adjustment that must take place among firms and workers and between the provincial economies.

I think the government can and should help workers adjust to the new reality with retraining and relocation. Where there are already policies in place, I think some supplementary policies to help workers adjust to this new reality are important.

But before talking about labour market issues, let me talk about business sector issues. What I'm going to say to you today is that the question of whether the government should provide assistance directly to the business sector to compensate for Canadian dollar appreciation is quite problematic.

Clearly, many firms rely heavily on exporting to the U.S., and they're suffering a significantly decreased ability to compete in the U.S. market. There's no doubt about that. And the adjustments are nowhere near all behind us by any means. However, from a conceptual point of view, whether it's appropriate to provide new assistance directly to firms, specifically to compensate for the difficulties they're having in adjusting to the higher dollar, is problematic.

Adjusting to a changed exchange rate is a well-known risk of doing business in Canada. That's the way it is. Adjusting to an exchange rate is a well-known risk of doing business. There are other well-known risks of doing business--higher energy prices, a weaker U.S. economy. A change in the value of the dollar is one of them. We opt for a flexible currency, and that's the way it goes.

Now, it's very difficult to design fair and effective assistance to firms suffering from the high Canadian dollar. So besides this point that whether we should be compensating companies for this risk is conceptually very problematic, let's just assume that you want to do that. My next set of points says that in doing that it's pretty difficult to spend the taxpayers' money wisely, and here's why.

Some firms have adopted hedging strategies, and some haven't. So are you going to compensate those who haven't done the appropriate management strategy?

Some manufacturers do not rely heavily on exporting to the U.S. Some rely on exporting to Europe rather than to the U.S. Some can switch more effectively to other export locations.

Some manufacturers don't export. In fact, some manufacturers are doing very well supplying the energy sector, for example.

Some manufacturers are suffering from problems other than the high Canadian dollar. High energy prices would be a good example.

Some manufacturers—and here I specifically mean the Detroit-based U.S. auto companies—have serious problems that go beyond the high value of the Canadian dollar, and those problems are going to be with them for a little while.

Other companies, firms, and sectors are suffering because of a weakness in the U.S. economy, maybe indirectly related to the value of the dollar.

Also, some non-manufacturers—computer software people would be an example—rely more heavily on exporting to the U.S. than some manufacturers do. Many non-manufacturers do not export to the U.S., but they suffer seriously from increased import competition from the U.S. The tourism sector would be a good example here. So any form of assistance directed at compensating manufacturers for their difficulties in adjusting to the high Canadian dollar, if you decided you were going to do that, would likely be seriously off target and unfair to some non-manufacturers.

Let me get quite specific about the capital cost allowance that was in budget 2007, and of course the government is considering extending that in budget 2008. I'm saying that no specific or special break for manufacturers relative to firms in other sectors should be made. Any breaks should not be justified by particular difficulties that some of these firms are having in coping with the high Canadian dollar.

To be clear, I'm saying that assistance to the business sector in coping with the high dollar is problematic. If you want to do it, it's very difficult to spend the taxpayers' money wisely. And with respect to this particular tax break, if you do decide to extend that tax break, you should make that tax break apply to all firms, not just manufacturers.

That tax break should be extended not with the justification that they're having a difficult problem coping with the high dollar; it should be extended for the very good reason that this tax break can be very helpful in improving productivity and competitiveness. It would have been a good idea to have done this kind of thing three years ago, two years ago, one year ago, and one year from now. It's a good idea. This can be a very effective tax break in improving productivity, another reason not to limit it to manufacturers.

It could also, of course, move us into getting the marginal effective tax rate on investment closer to some of the other countries in the OECD. We're doing well relative to the Americans, but we're lagging behind others. So international competitiveness is another good reason for doing this tax break.

This tax break will not be as expensive as you probably think it would be. The reason is that in budget 2007 or any budget document the government always reports what's called the fiscal cost. That fiscal cost never incorporates the feedback and the stimulation that the government will get from extra economic growth that will be stimulated by that tax cut.

So when the government, as it always does—and make sure you press finance department officials on this—costs anything in the budget, that's the so-called fiscal cost. It does not include the fact that certain tax cuts, and this is one of the leading ones, tax cuts on investment or marginal tax cuts on people, will stimulate economic growth and the government will get some of its money back. That's not counted in. That's why I'm saying that with this particular tax break, because in the fullness of time it will stimulate productivity and economic growth, the government will get some of its money back.

When they cost it out and say “Dale Orr says expand it to everybody. Gee, I wish we had enough money. It's going to cost us three times as much,” I would say, “Much better, don't be non-discriminatory. Put it for everybody, and if that's too much, then don't keep it at 50%.” Cut the cloth to fit the money that you have available. It's much better to cut the rate and keep it applying to everybody than to be discriminatory.

But on this tax break, the extension of this capital cost allowance in whatever form you decide to put it, I'm saying if you decide to do it, please have it apply to everybody and not just limited to manufacturers. And don't justify it because of the high dollar; justify it because it's a good move for productivity and competitiveness.

If you decide to do that, I think it should be on the agenda for budget 2008. It should be on the agenda. But is this more important than reducing certain personal income taxes? Is this more important than putting that government funding towards infrastructure development? Is it more important than putting government money to reducing poverty? I don't know. That's why I'm saying it's problematic.

Let me turn to the labour side. I'm much more sympathetic with the government increasing their assistance on the labour side than I am on the business side. The government can and should provide increased assistance to workers, but this assistance also should not be justified or tried to be identified only with workers who are suffering from a high Canadian dollar. It should be justified because we're helping these workers train, retrain, relocate to find more rewarding and secure employment to help them and their families, and help the Canadian economy.

One of the most pressing problems in Canada right now.... If some of you are from western Canada, you'd say “Well, what's the pressing problem?” It's a shortage of labour, right? We're sitting here saying, “Gee, we have all these people losing their jobs because of the high Canadian dollar.” It seems ironic, doesn't it?

The unemployment rate in Canada is about the lowest in 30 years, but there are still about one million Canadians unemployed. About 40% of the unemployed are living in regions of perpetually high unemployment rates, mostly in eastern Canada. About 70% of these unemployed are under the age of 45. So a movement by those people to where the jobs are in western Canada would have a good payoff. That's why I'm saying it's important to maybe focus this relocation on people who are younger--there's bigger payoff.

Many of the job openings in western Canada are now being filled by immigrants into Canada, while Canadians continue to pay unemployment insurance to people who do not move to where the jobs are. This makes the standard of living lower than otherwise in Canada, and it's unfair to hardworking Canadians.

In recent years, an increasing number of people have relocated to more promising labour markets, but these people have been motivated by their own personal, private initiative as well as significant initiative from some private sector employers in the west. However, the federal government has not significantly ramped up its assistance to help people relocate to where the jobs are in response to the growing labour market needs of the west--increasing federal government assistance to workers for interprovincial relocation. That's a bad word in the federal government. It was a bad word when I was working in the federal government 20 years ago, and I understand it's still a bad word. But I think it's good for Canada. It's good for those people, it's good for those families--interprovincial relocation. Ramp up those efforts; they're long overdue.

That's it. I have the charts. I think my ten minutes are up.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Yes, your ten minutes are up, but I'm sure there'll be lots of questions. There'll be lots of opportunity....

3:45 p.m.

Managing Director, Canadian Macroeconomic Services, Global Insight Inc.

Dr. Dale Orr

Then if you have any questions, like why did you put that chart in there, what are you trying to show.... You'll see that those charts buttress some of the points I was making, but please feel free to ask whatever you'd like.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Thank you very much, Mr. Orr.

The first round will be six minutes total for members for questions and answers.

We'll start with Mr. Eyking.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Mark Eyking Liberal Sydney—Victoria, NS

Thank you for coming, Mr. Orr.

I was very interested in the first part of your conversation, but the last part about relocation really disturbs me, especially as I'm from a rural region and a region in eastern Canada. There's the assumption that we should start moving people around this country to follow the jobs as the solution. Especially for the rural communities, it really decimates them, and leaves them very short of tax base and various things.

I'll just give you an example of what we went through in Cape Breton ten years ago. We lost our groundfish industry, then we lost our coal industry because of international markets, and then we lost our steel industry. So we lost about 15,000 jobs in that region and went to 28% unemployment.

One could sit there and use your model and say let's just tell them all to go to Alberta, and that would have pretty well emptied out the community and that would have been the end of it. That's not what happened. There were funds available, and we had a development agency, and there was some help there from HRDC for retraining--retraining the coal miners, retraining the fish plant workers to work in telecommunications and various things. Right now we're at 13% unemployment. The community is doing quite well and we'd like to be at the national average. Yes, some of our people are working in Alberta, but they're coming back and forth, so their families are staying intact.

So I think it's a simple solution to say let them move. If you close a major lumber mill somewhere, or if you change a fishing industry, let them all move. But I think we can be more creative in this country. I think we can help. Businesses sometimes come to regions that are facing challenges. We can retrain workers so they can stay in the regions. Sometimes it's cheaper for companies to set up the infrastructure in these regions.

I'd like you to comment on that, that maybe there are models out there that can help people retrain, and communities can survive and go through this, with some government intervention and help. They're not to be there to subsidize them forever, and not to be there holding them up by the hand all the time, but helping them get through that transition, helping them introduce new industries to their towns, and helping them get through that.

I'd like to have your comments on that, because the model worked for us, and I think it could work in many other regions.

3:45 p.m.

Managing Director, Canadian Macroeconomic Services, Global Insight Inc.

Dr. Dale Orr

Thanks.

I certainly recognize how difficult it is for the individuals, the workers, the families, the communities. There's no underplaying that. But I think the other side of this is there are a lot of difficulties if you don't do that. In my view, while the dollar may not stay at par for the next five years, I don't think it's going to spend a lot of the next five years below 90¢, so they're in for a pretty tough time if they don't move from some communities--a very tough time.

What would the country look like if people hadn't moved out of rural Saskatchewan 30 or 40 years ago, and the government had just subsidized them so their communities didn't shrink? Some communities there have shrunk significantly. Some have disappeared.

The other thing I would say is certainly I don't think anybody should do anything more than offer increased opportunities to those people to move, if they want. It's very clear that when western employers go there, people respond. I think the federal government should be in there helping them out as well. I also think, if they don't want to move, okay, that's fine. I've been in Cape Breton, and I'd probably rather live there than in Toronto. It's a very pleasant place. But I ask you this: if you're a worker suffering through all the problems we've got in Toronto, and there are quite a few--it's a tough place to live--and you're earning $30,000 or $40,000 a year, and the government is subtracting unemployment insurance from your pay, if that person in the east were to take that job and get off unemployment insurance, this person wouldn't have to be taxed to pay.... So while it's nice to think it's very hard for those people to move, the point is, they're being subsidized by other people. It's very difficult for some other people to subsidize them.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Mark Eyking Liberal Sydney—Victoria, NS

Just on that point, though, in order to have people working in our fisheries industry in the fish plants, we don't have 12 months. You're asking, do you close the fish plants in Atlantic Canada? Do you just close everything because it's seasonal work? We don't have the opportunity you have in Toronto, where you have work for 12 months a year. Your model would be to just keep people all close to the border in a manufacturing industry, and our rural industries are going to be emptied out. That's what your model would lean towards.

3:50 p.m.

Managing Director, Canadian Macroeconomic Services, Global Insight Inc.

Dr. Dale Orr

I guess what my model would lean toward is moving the unemployment insurance system much closer to a real insurance system, so the costs there would go more on the employer who can't offer 12 months of work. Why should they go to the person who is working in Toronto?

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Mark Eyking Liberal Sydney—Victoria, NS

What's your opinion on helping industry set up in regions where we are going through difficulties?

3:50 p.m.

Managing Director, Canadian Macroeconomic Services, Global Insight Inc.

Dr. Dale Orr

Do you mean in general, or simply when they're going through difficulties?

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Mark Eyking Liberal Sydney—Victoria, NS

In general. If you have a lumber mill that's closed in northern Ontario, shouldn't we be helping those companies to set up new companies?

3:50 p.m.

Managing Director, Canadian Macroeconomic Services, Global Insight Inc.

Dr. Dale Orr

I would say basically not, because time and time again--and there are some very infamous examples.... So you subsidize that lumber mill--

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Mark Eyking Liberal Sydney—Victoria, NS

Not a lumber mill, but helping them change to another industry.

3:50 p.m.

Managing Director, Canadian Macroeconomic Services, Global Insight Inc.

Dr. Dale Orr

Oh, on the labour side. Yes, as I said, I'm quite sympathetic to helping on the labour side and less sympathetic to providing compensation to firms.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Mark Eyking Liberal Sydney—Victoria, NS

Do I have any more time?

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

You're out of time, unfortunately. Thank you, Mr. Eyking.

We'll go to Madame Brunelle.

3:50 p.m.

Bloc

Paule Brunelle Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC

Good afternoon, Mr. Orr. Thank you for being here.

I'd like to know a little more about your organization, Global Insight Inc. Are you a consultant? What is your job? I don't know your business.

3:50 p.m.

Managing Director, Canadian Macroeconomic Services, Global Insight Inc.

Dr. Dale Orr

I can understand your French. It must be very good.

Yes, we are an economic forecasting and consulting company. And as I say to people, we have clients of all stripes in the public sector and in the private sector, in most of the economic departments of the federal and provincial governments, and of course large corporations, hydro companies, whatever.

I think the important thing is that I'm here telling you what I can tell you from the point of view of an economist. When I was in the government, I worked in Industry Canada.

We have so many clients of all types of stripes that, no matter what I say, some client would think that's good for them and another one would think it's bad for them.

3:50 p.m.

Bloc

Paule Brunelle Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC

That's good. You're definitely the right person to answer my question. We know the concerns of the currency traders, in particular, with regard to the enormous U.S. deficit and the increasingly large U.S. loans made in foreign markets to finance their deficit. We've seen the price of crude oil, which was $19.71 in January 2002, rise to $98 in 2007. We also see the demand for the natural resources of emerging countries such as China and many others. All that has fostered the increase in the value of the dollar.

Do you think this is a trend? Or are these rather circumstantial events that we've seen for some time and that will not reoccur? Should we instead expect the dollar to remain high and to experience cyclical and very rapid fluctuations, as we've seen?

3:55 p.m.

Managing Director, Canadian Macroeconomic Services, Global Insight Inc.

Dr. Dale Orr

Thank you.

If you turn to the chart, I have the Canadian dollar forecast there. It shows, by our forecast, that over about the next six months the dollar will probably stay pretty close to par. It will be a bit under par for the latter part of 2008, and 98¢ or so for 2009. That is a combination of slightly weaker energy prices.... Also, that is compensated for. There will probably still be increasing downward pressure on the U.S. dollar generally. But we don't think oil is going to stay anywhere near where it has been in the last month--the $95 range. We see it ending 2008 at around $76.

To your earlier point about China and India, even $76-oil is a pretty high price relative to what people were expecting a few years ago. The Chinese economy in particular has been growing at a phenomenal rate of 9 to 10 percent. I think that is going to be the case for quite a few more years. They're going to demand a lot of our resources, not just for oil, but other metals and so on.

With respect to the demand for oil, to say that it's going to be in the $70 to $75 range is still pretty healthy demand. On the forestry side, though, I think it will be a while before the U.S. housing market comes back and provides the strength we need for our forestry sector.

That's where we see the dollar going, and that's why I think it's really important that whatever assistance you provide is in the nature of adjustment. Firms make these longer-term strategic decisions about investment and plant location. It's a very long-term business. They plan ahead. Even a year or so ago I think people making those big investment decisions such as plant expansion and moving were probably expecting the Canadian dollar to be in the 85¢ to 90¢ range. A very important point is that even if the dollar were to go to 95¢ tomorrow, which would be a fall of a nickel, and stayed there for the next quite a few years, a year from now people making these investment and relocation decisions would be looking at, say a 95¢ dollar, which is probably quite a bit higher than what they were looking at even a year ago.

So with respect to that part of it, the plant expansion and plant location decisions, we have not nearly seen the end of the negative impact from the Canadian dollar yet. We're going to be seeing that for the next two or three years.

3:55 p.m.

Bloc

Paule Brunelle Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC

Earlier you said that companies had to adjust to the increase in the value of the dollar. The major difficulty we've seen are the delays. The changes were so quick that companies had trouble adjusting to them.

Do you believe that the government has a role to play in ensuring a certain degree of stability? You yourself said that firms develop over the long term and take the long-term view. Isn't there a role for government in all that?

3:55 p.m.

Managing Director, Canadian Macroeconomic Services, Global Insight Inc.

Dr. Dale Orr

That's a bit of a tricky one. I guess I would certainly say that.

One of the difficulties of course is that the Canadian dollar can move unpredictably. It was $1.10 not that long ago, in early November. Now it's pretty close to $1.00--down 10¢. You say that it has moved fast. Well, it's at $1.00; it was over 90¢ a year ago, and it could be 95¢ two weeks from now. So when they say “it has moved so fast”, that's one of the difficulties.

I would say that if you're focusing your efforts on whatever sorts of tax breaks or program expenditures are helping firms to be more productive for whatever reason, then you probably can't miss.

On the labour side, I think one of the very important things that's driving up the dollar is the high energy prices, so that's creating all sorts of income and job opportunities in the west. That's really one of the major direct causes for why the dollar is high. You could take advantage of that and move the people to where the jobs are.