Evidence of meeting #20 for Industry, Science and Technology in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was measurement.
A recording is available from Parliament.
9:40 a.m.
Conservative
Mike Lake Conservative Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB
But in terms of why it would be more one way versus another, there might be an explanation that isn't necessarily deliberate tampering with gas pumps. It might be the way certain pumps wear down, that it happens to wear in favour of the....
9:40 a.m.
Vice-President, Program Development Directorate, Measurement Canada, Department of Industry
It is possible, yes, that some technology, some types of devices, may wear down in a certain way that would penalize consumers. Again, introducing regular calibration and certification would address that.
Yes, we have no evidence that this is a general approach by industry.
9:40 a.m.
Conservative
Mike Lake Conservative Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB
I just wanted to clarify that. Yet at the end of the day, when a consumer goes to buy gas for their vehicle, it's fair to say that they should get what they're paying for, regardless of why the pump might be out of whack.
9:40 a.m.
Vice-President, Program Development Directorate, Measurement Canada, Department of Industry
Yes.
9:40 a.m.
Conservative
Mike Lake Conservative Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB
I think you touched on this earlier, but just to talk about the cost to the consumer on an annual basis, just of gas alone, did you say $20 million?
9:40 a.m.
Vice-President, Program Development Directorate, Measurement Canada, Department of Industry
That's right. Well, $20 million is lost by consumers.
9:40 a.m.
Conservative
Mike Lake Conservative Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB
Lost by consumers because of this inaccuracy. So it's a pretty substantial issue. And that's just for gas alone.
Now, this bill touches on several other sectors as well. What were those sectors again?
9:40 a.m.
Vice-President, Program Development Directorate, Measurement Canada, Department of Industry
We have retail petroleum, which also includes the truck refuelers and home heating oil meters, which have very low compliance levels as well. Retail food and the dairy, mining, forestry, and grain industries are sectors that would first be addressed by the bill, because the bill would cover everything. For these eight sectors, mandatory inspection frequencies would be introduced through regulations, not through the bill.
9:40 a.m.
Conservative
Mike Lake Conservative Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB
You mentioned that measurement compliance rates in some industrial sectors, such as mining and logging, are typically around 50% and the bias is largely in favour of the device owner. How can that be? That seems astonishing—50% non-compliant. That's a pretty big number. Why is it so much higher there?
9:40 a.m.
Vice-President, Program Development Directorate, Measurement Canada, Department of Industry
There are a lot of factors that contribute to that. We are very concerned about that compliance level, and that's why we believe that Bill C-14 would address a lot of the issues by introducing regular inspection--we're talking yearly--in those sectors.
Of course at the same time we're doing other things in Measurement Canada that do not require changes in the act to address that. But we feel annual inspection is a must, and it will really improve the situation, because at 50% we're talking about half of the devices not measuring within the legal tolerances.
9:40 a.m.
Conservative
Mike Lake Conservative Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB
I imagine there's been a fairly significant consultation process here. I notice that you talk about an attempt to have a voluntary program, and it seems that there was no take-up on that. So you've had this consultation process on how to go about this. Could you describe that process? Who was consulted?
9:40 a.m.
President, Measurement Canada, Department of Industry
We identified through StatsCan all the trade sectors where measurement formed the basis of their transactions. We then split it up by sector. Then we formed a team within Measurement Canada. We identified the stakeholders in each of those sectors, and that included both industry and consumer groups, anybody who we felt was affected by the measurement transaction in that sector. We then set up cross-Canada consultations with the stakeholders. In fact, we even trained some of our consumer groups. We wanted knowledgeable stakeholders, so we brought in some of the consumer groups to train them and then we organized these cross-Canada meetings.
Everybody was around the table, including the industry and consumer groups. We went through a series of questions that we had developed, asking them for opinions. For example, did they think mandatory inspections were important? How often? Did they think that Measurement Canada should even be involved in this sector? These are the kinds of questions we had.
We did them by the various sectors. We compiled all of this information, which led us to recommending that Bill C-14 be introduced to make changes as per the stakeholders. For example, stakeholders were also asked whether they felt that alternate service delivery was okay. Almost all consumers said they were fine with it, provided that Measurement Canada continued to play a strong audit oversight role, which is a cornerstone of what Measurement Canada needs to do in order to ensure that the recognized technicians are doing their job.
I should also point out that this is not new for us. We have had alternate service delivery in the Electricity and Gas Inspection Act for over 20 years.
9:45 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Michael Chong
Thank you very much, Mr. Johnston. Thank you, Mr. Lake.
Mr. Masse.
9:45 a.m.
NDP
Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
The video that didn't play, is that intended for public or private broadcast?
9:45 a.m.
President, Measurement Canada, Department of Industry
It's intended for public broadcast. It was developed a number of years ago.
9:45 a.m.
NDP
Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON
So it's not going to be purchased; there's no advertising campaign for this.
9:45 a.m.
President, Measurement Canada, Department of Industry
No. We use it simply as an introduction to Measurement Canada.
9:45 a.m.
NDP
Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON
Okay, thank you. That's important to make sure, though, because we see some of these things emerge during discussion at debate and legislation.
9:45 a.m.
NDP
Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON
Thank you.
With regard to the process, there's approximately a 60%-40% split between inspectors being Measurement Canada versus those other operators you employ right now. Those other operators, when they go out and inspect a pump, who do they get a paycheque from?
9:45 a.m.
President, Measurement Canada, Department of Industry
From the device owner.
9:45 a.m.
NDP
Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON
From the device owner, right now.
The public inspectors, do they get a paycheque from the Government of Canada?
9:45 a.m.
President, Measurement Canada, Department of Industry
They get a paycheque from the Government of Canada. We don't charge for regular inspections or periodic inspections at the present time.
9:45 a.m.
NDP
Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON
So right now we have a system in place where, if you're lucky enough to get a public inspector, you don't get charged for that, but if you have a private inspector, you get charged for that.
9:45 a.m.
President, Measurement Canada, Department of Industry
First of all, I should have mentioned that all devices under the Weights and Measures Act must be initially inspected by either Measurement Canada or a recognized technician. We do charge for those. However, most of those inspections are now being done by the recognized technicians. We only do random inspections, and yes, we don't charge for random inspections at the present time.