Evidence of meeting #26 for Industry, Science and Technology in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was shell.
A recording is available from Parliament.
9:45 a.m.
Vice-President, Downstream Portfolio, Shell
Mr. Chairman, I don't think it's appropriate for me to negotiate in a public forum. These are private negotiations between two parties. I don't feel I can answer that question directly.
9:45 a.m.
NDP
Yvon Godin NDP Acadie—Bathurst, NB
Well, I think you cannot answer the questions because Shell doesn't want to sell. In my view, what Shell wants to do is simple. They have been in Quebec and they have been in the Atlantic for the last 77 years, served very well, made lots of money. Today they've found a way they can make more money: just bring the oil in and sell it to the sucker who has been buying it from your company for the last 77 years. If not, why are you questioning where the money's coming from? If Delek gets money from the government or gets it from somebody else, is Shell not happy if they get their money?
9:45 a.m.
Vice-President, Downstream Portfolio, Shell
We would accept money from any legal source. The question is not our dispute over money. In the expressions of interest I have in front of me from Delek, these were not verbal offers; these were written expressions of interest. I have the sources and uses of funds. This is a typical thing requested by a seller to understand where a buyer can find its funds. The vast majority of the funds come from syndicates backed by the government or directly from the government—there's no problem with that. The problem is that the total number on this piece of paper is not high enough.
9:45 a.m.
Liberal
Denis Coderre Liberal Bourassa, QC
Mr. Chair, since Mr. Oblath is supporting his comments and his answers to our questions with a document containing very clear numbers, I would like him to submit this document, so that we can have a look at it. Given that this committee is in public session today, I think that it would be appropriate for Mr. Oblath to submit that document, so that we can do our work.
9:45 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Michael Chong
That's not a point of order, but we'll take it up at the next opportunity. When Mr. McTeague has the floor I'll bring it up then, and we can decide as a committee if we're going to do that or not.
Go ahead, Monsieur Godin.
9:45 a.m.
NDP
Yvon Godin NDP Acadie—Bathurst, NB
Mr. Chair, I hope that I have not lost my speaking time.
We have to watch every minute around here.
You say that you are not here to negotiate with us. I agree with you. However, we are told that you are the seller, and the other party is the buyer. There are figures on the table. If the company asks you today what your conditions are and meets them on paper, are you still for sale? Do you mind if it is Delek?
If the Government of Quebec is prepared to let that company into the province, and if the Atlantic region is prepared to accept Shell selling this refinery, as it wishes, why not sell? You were welcome here for 77 years, but, according to Mr. Rocheleau, as you have not made any money in 2009, you told yourselves that it would be best if you left. The only reason is that Shell could make a lot more money a lot faster. That's the real reason, let's say so.
Otherwise, Shell should say that it has a plan, that it wants to sell the refinery and its service stations and then leave. You would be saying thanks for those 77 years, but you want to move on. It is not for you to worry if there is gasoline or not. Governments will take care of it or worry about it.
Do you really want to sell? Yes or no? If not, are you not just looking to get a profit out of it? You made people believe that you were for sale, but you are actually not. You want to bring us oil from elsewhere and rub our noses in it. That is what you want to do. Isn't that right, Mr. Houle?
9:50 a.m.
NDP
9:50 a.m.
Vice-President, Downstream Portfolio, Shell
If any company that is a credible operator or refinery would want to buy the refinery alone or would make an offer for the refinery and other businesses at a suitable value, we would be sellers. We have not denied that.
9:50 a.m.
NDP
Yvon Godin NDP Acadie—Bathurst, NB
Yes, but you're saying if it's a credible operator and all of that--why do you care?
9:50 a.m.
Vice-President, Downstream Portfolio, Shell
Oh, we do care, Mr. Chairman. For instance, if we were to sell the refinery alone, which was originally our plan, we want to make sure that our customers are provided with fuel from that refinery.
9:50 a.m.
NDP
Yvon Godin NDP Acadie—Bathurst, NB
If you feel that strongly, if you're a good citizen, why don't you feel that strongly about your employees you want to throw out the door?
9:50 a.m.
Vice-President, Downstream Portfolio, Shell
The most difficult part of my job, Mr. Chair, is knowing that some of the decisions we take impact my fellow colleagues at Shell. This is not something taken lightly. There's no pleasure taken in the fact that some people are going to lose their jobs.
9:50 a.m.
NDP
Yvon Godin NDP Acadie—Bathurst, NB
I've heard that story so many times from companies, that they feel so bad, they want to cry, when they close down and won't make more money.
9:50 a.m.
Vice-President, Downstream Portfolio, Shell
Mr. Chair, we have a responsibility to a lot of different stakeholders. We have responsibilities to our--
9:50 a.m.
Vice-President, Downstream Portfolio, Shell
And to our employees, and to the communities we serve in, and to the wider communities--
9:50 a.m.
NDP
Yvon Godin NDP Acadie—Bathurst, NB
Then I ask again, if a potential company is ready to buy and the government has confidence in that company, everything has been checked and they could do a good job, are you ready to sell, yes or no?
9:50 a.m.
Vice-President, Downstream Portfolio, Shell
Mr. Chair, we're ready to sell. I would point out that the company in question withdrew from the negotiations. We did not end those negotiations.
9:50 a.m.
NDP
Yvon Godin NDP Acadie—Bathurst, NB
If they want to get back in it, are you going to open the negotiations again?
9:50 a.m.
Vice-President, Downstream Portfolio, Shell
If they're willing to come back to the table and discuss with us an offer that is... They know exactly the numbers. During this meeting on June 21 we had very detailed discussions about the values needed. They know exactly the amount of cash they need. We would have discussions.
I would like to point out that we originally made a decision after looking for buyers and getting no offers in January. We then, at the request of the special committee and the governments involved, extended the timeline until June 1. It's now July. We're running out of time. We need to protect the fuel supplies coming into this part of the country, to Quebec, to Atlantic Canada, and to portions of Ontario. If we're in the position that we cannot transfer to a terminal and we have to shut our refinery for turnaround anyway, and if we're not able to find a buyer, we either have to then make a decision to convert to a terminal very quickly, or we are going to threaten the supplies for this region of the country.
9:50 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Michael Chong
Thank you very much, Mr. Oblath. Thank you, Mr. Godin.
Now we're going to go to Mr. McTeague. Before we do, I understand, Mr. Coderre, that you've got a request for the members of the committee.
9:55 a.m.
Liberal
Dan McTeague Liberal Pickering—Scarborough East, ON
Mr. Chair, I think there has been some discussion around the table to extend this particular part of the meeting this morning by an additional 15 minutes to allow all members an opportunity to ask more than one question.
9:55 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Michael Chong
Is it the wish of members of the committee to extend the meeting to 10:45?
Okay, it is agreed to do so.